Can we now admit the new 7th Sea is floundering?

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Floundering! ;)
There, I said it. :p What do I win to eat?
 
Shipyard Locked said:
I propose talking about Asian food for a while, in honor of Wick's latest achievement.
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I can't help but feel that the best analogy for Wick-style Asian gaming would be some kind of frozen prepackaged creation that is to Asian food what those New York Bagel Company bagels we get here in the UK are to actual New York bagels.
 
Ok personal critique of 7th Sea 2.0...
First what worked in 1st ed, and what didn't! IMO the setting and game worked in general, there were defined nations with enough background to built from... even the Syrneth / Explorers elements sort of worked and were certainly not a requirement for play. Character creation didn't work, and attributes were way too important compared to almost everything else. Also certain knacks were of critical importance (footwork, maybe balance).
Then the splat books came out and each had to trump the last, so we got an ever increasing number of schools and sorceries which slowly pushed the power levels and unreality of the setting... it then sort of collapsed under its own weight.

So along came 2nd edition, which should have cleaned up and cleaned out and bought back some much needed balance.

Unfortunately it didn't really do that, what it did was gut the system and then turn it on it's head. Where 1st ed was a heroic ACTION game and you couldn't be sure of your success, 2nd ed is a heroic TOKEN game where you spend your tokens (raises) to succeed and to mitigate the consequences. In essence 2nd ed pushes the GM to do all the work and the players then get to choose their responses - a bit like an old Fighting Fantasy book.
2nd ed also butchered sword schools making them overpowered compared to everyone else and yet simultaneously lacking any depth or inherent flair. It created massively unbalanced sorceries and advantages and an advancement system that encourages the gm to limit player advancement or watch his game spiral out of control. The single biggest issue is probably how much work the game dumps onto the gm from balancing encounters and limiting the worst effects of sorceries to detailing consequences and opportunities for every action. It's exhausting.

Personally I like to have interesting advancement - I like my schools and sorceries to have multiple options and depth that require time to achieve. Although the setting demands fully capable heroes from the get go, an rpg generally requires character advancement and growth... and 2nd ed has kind of killed that as the advancement paths are so limited in many ways.

On the plus side 2nd ed combat runs much faster in general and can keep a good pace, something that 1st ed struggled with. On the down side it did this in part by oversimplifying which is why the sword schools feel dull, and why certain advantages actually detract from roleplaying (want to break into the villains house? Ok don't bother to play the scene out, just activate an advantage). This in turn means that the splat books are great for flavour and ideas, but pretty weak for mechanics... there just isn't enough game system to base them on!

Anyway that's my rant on it done.
IMO 2nd ed should have rebalanced everything, cleaned up the system and tried to speed it up... but keep the essence of heroic action rather than trying to change it into a story based game.

Oh and foodwise Khitai is a pizza, with sweet and sour pork and stir fry veg topping.
 
LegendsRK said:
Ok personal critique of 7th Sea 2.0...
First what worked in 1st ed, and what didn't! IMO the setting and game worked in general, there were defined nations with enough background to built from... even the Syrneth / Explorers elements sort of worked and were certainly not a requirement for play. Character creation didn't work, and attributes were way too important compared to almost everything else. Also certain knacks were of critical importance (footwork, maybe balance).
Then the splat books came out and each had to trump the last, so we got an ever increasing number of schools and sorceries which slowly pushed the power levels and unreality of the setting... it then sort of collapsed under its own weight.

So along came 2nd edition, which should have cleaned up and cleaned out and bought back some much needed balance.

Unfortunately it didn't really do that, what it did was gut the system and then turn it on it's head. Where 1st ed was a heroic ACTION game and you couldn't be sure of your success, 2nd ed is a heroic TOKEN game where you spend your tokens (raises) to succeed and to mitigate the consequences. In essence 2nd ed pushes the GM to do all the work and the players then get to choose their responses - a bit like an old Fighting Fantasy book.
2nd ed also butchered sword schools making them overpowered compared to everyone else and yet simultaneously lacking any depth or inherent flair. It created massively unbalanced sorceries and advantages and an advancement system that encourages the gm to limit player advancement or watch his game spiral out of control. The single biggest issue is probably how much work the game dumps onto the gm from balancing encounters and limiting the worst effects of sorceries to detailing consequences and opportunities for every action. It's exhausting.

Personally I like to have interesting advancement - I like my schools and sorceries to have multiple options and depth that require time to achieve. Although the setting demands fully capable heroes from the get go, an rpg generally requires character advancement and growth... and 2nd ed has kind of killed that as the advancement paths are so limited in many ways.

On the plus side 2nd ed combat runs much faster in general and can keep a good pace, something that 1st ed struggled with. On the down side it did this in part by oversimplifying which is why the sword schools feel dull, and why certain advantages actually detract from roleplaying (want to break into the villains house? Ok don't bother to play the scene out, just activate an advantage). This in turn means that the splat books are great for flavour and ideas, but pretty weak for mechanics... there just isn't enough game system to base them on!

Anyway that's my rant on it done.
IMO 2nd ed should have rebalanced everything, cleaned up the system and tried to speed it up... but keep the essence of heroic action rather than trying to change it into a story based game.

Oh and foodwise Khitai is a pizza, with sweet and sour pork and stir fry veg topping.
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Yeesh. Sounds like an Exalted 3 level clusterfuck of new edition fail.
 
I agree with most of what you said LegendsRK, but...

LegendsRK said:
In essence 2nd ed pushes the GM to do all the work and the players then get to choose their responses - a bit like an old Fighting Fantasy book.
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You take that insult against FF back right this instant! :confused:
FF choices were generally real and consequential. Actual death and genuine surprise lurked around many corners.
 
Shipyard Locked said:
I agree with most of what you said LegendsRK, but...



You take that insult against FF back right this instant! :confused:
FF choices were generally real and consequential. Actual death and genuine surprise lurked around many corners.
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You're right, I take back the implied insult to FF (which were great).
 
So I've been ordering a lot of food from pizza restaurants (Domino's, Pizza Hut, and several local restaurants) and I have been not ordering pizza. Been ordering sandwiches, buffalo wings, fries, and a calzone.

Does this make me a bad person?
 
It depends on how tasty the sandwiches, buffalo wings, fries, and calzone are.
 
The buffalo wings tasted like disappointment, but everything else was delicious.
 
I haven't even had a pizza in weeks. I think the closest I've came have been some avocado-and-ham flatbreads.

My weight is going in the right direction though, so that's good. And I've only been running for a few weeks, but I already feel (Slightly) better at it.
 
Belle Sorciere said:
So I've been ordering a lot of food from pizza restaurants (Domino's, Pizza Hut, and several local restaurants) and I have been not ordering pizza. Been ordering sandwiches, buffalo wings, fries, and a calzone.

Does this make me a bad person?
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Calzone is pizza folded on itself before baking.

Ladybird said:
I haven't even had a pizza in weeks. I think the closest I've came have been some avocado-and-ham flatbreads.

My weight is going in the right direction though, so that's good. And I've only been running for a few weeks, but I already feel (Slightly) better at it.
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Flatbreads are pizza that's embarassed to call itself pizza. ;)
 
Belle Sorciere said:
So I've been ordering a lot of food from pizza restaurants (Domino's, Pizza Hut, and several local restaurants) and I have been not ordering pizza. Been ordering sandwiches, buffalo wings, fries, and a calzone.

Does this make me a bad person?
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Not a damn thing wrong with that. Hot wing and calzones for the win!
 
The Butcher said:
Calzone is pizza folded on itself before baking.
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We have deep-fried pizza over here, a cheap oven pizza folded in half and deep-fried. I've had a pizza supper once, the first night I was up in Scotland; and it was delicious, greasy, with the wonderful taste of friend cheese, but even the thought of another feels excessive in a way that eating an entire unfried pizza and chips on my own wouldn't.

Flatbreads are pizza that's embarassed to call itself pizza. ;)
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My daughter does like a tortilla pizza, which you basically make like any other pizza, except you use a tortilla as the base. You have to be careful not to overdo the sauce or "wet" ingredients (I put a lot of peppers on them), as the base is too thin to really cope with getting damp and that can cause problems when you actually plate it, but if it goes wrong then it's messy in a way that makes it fun to eat so it's not a big problem.
 
Ladybird said:
We have deep-fried pizza over here, a cheap oven pizza folded in half and deep-fried. I've had a pizza supper once, the first night I was up in Scotland; and it was delicious, greasy, with the wonderful taste of friend cheese, but even the thought of another feels excessive in a way that eating an entire unfried pizza and chips on my own wouldn't.
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Deep fried pizza?:smile: That sounds right up my alley. You could probably deep fry dog shit and I would eat it. But no twinkies, that's just weird.
 
Ronin said:
Deep fried pizza?:smile: That sounds right up my alley. You could probably deep fry dog shit and I would eat it. But no twinkies, that's just weird.
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Go to Scotland. They'll deep fry it or dip it in batter and then deep fry it, depending on whether or not it would survive the hot oil unaided.
 
Stevethulhu said:
Go to Scotland. They'll deep fry it or dip it in batter and then deep fry it, depending on whether or not it would survive the hot oil unaided.
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"Babe! Call the travel agent, we're going to Scotland!":grin:
 
Ronin said:
Deep fried pizza?:smile: That sounds right up my alley. You could probably deep fry dog shit and I would eat it. But no twinkies, that's just weird.
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I had a deep-fried mars bar, once. It tasted like sugary melted cheese; I didn't like it, I don't think I even finished it. Not recommended.

Stevethulhu said:
Go to Scotland. They'll deep fry it or dip it in batter and then deep fry it, depending on whether or not it would survive the hot oil unaided.
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It's brilliant up here, but the thing I miss the most is that nobody really does a good pasty. Macaroni pies and curry pies are good on their own merits, and of course there's the bridie, but it's just not quite right without the potato and swede. And scotch pies can just fuck right off, vile gristly things that they are.
 
Ladybird said:
I had a deep-fried mars bar, once. It tasted like sugary melted cheese; I didn't like it, I don't think I even finished it. Not recommended.
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Yeah, sounds pretty gross.
Ladybird said:
It's brilliant up here, but the thing I miss the most is that nobody really does a good pasty. Macaroni pies and curry pies are good on their own merits, and of course there's the bridie, but it's just not quite right without the potato and swede. And scotch pies can just fuck right off, vile gristly things that they are.
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OK, so heres the plan. I'll come into some money. Fly over there. I will bring pasties cooked by my buddies mom from the UP (Upper Peninsula of Michigan). Best there is as far as I'm concerned. Then we will go to Scotland and drink the best whisky there is, and eat total garbage, and revel in it.
 
Ronin said:
Yeah, sounds pretty gross.

OK, so heres the plan. I'll come into some money. Fly over there. I will bring pasties cooked by my buddies mom from the UP (Upper Peninsula of Michigan). Best there is as far as I'm concerned. Then we will go to Scotland and drink the best whisky there is, and eat total garbage, and revel in it.
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You can get good pasties in America? I might need to make a trip to the UP.
 
Baulderstone said:
You can get good pasties in America? I might need to make a trip to the UP.
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Any place you had a lot of Welsh Immigrants, you got pasties. Minnesota is big too, but not like the UP. You can also find supposedly authentic pasties in California and Nevada of all things, in historic Gold Rush mining towns.
 
CRKrueger said:
Any place you had a lot of Welsh Immigrants, you got pasties. Minnesota is big too, but not like the UP. You can also find supposedly authentic pasties in California and Nevada of all things, in historic Gold Rush mining towns.
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Pastry is a vitamin here in Wales. when my wife first moved here from New Jersey she couldn't believe the sheer amount of food that's wrapped in pastry and baked in the oven. And pasties are the food of the gods. But that D-shaped thing that got PGI status from the EU isn't Cornish Pasty. A true Cornish should have a so called Dragon Back. Like this.

pasty2.JPG
 
CRKrueger said:
Any place you had a lot of Welsh Immigrants, you got pasties. Minnesota is big too, but not like the UP. You can also find supposedly authentic pasties in California and Nevada of all things, in historic Gold Rush mining towns.
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There's former mining towns in Mexico - mainly in Hidalgo state - where Cornish pasties are a local specialty. The miners were Cornish.
 
Since we've been talking pastys. My favorite (non-homemade) ones are from Muldoons. (Link and Link) But I don't get them very much. They are about 4 and a half hours away.
 
Ronin said:
Since we've been talking pastys. My favorite (non-homemade) ones are from Muldoons. (Link and Link) But I don't get them very much. They are about 4 and a half hours away.
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That looks a bit dry to me. A good pastie needs to be moist enough that you can eat it without needing a drink. But not so wet that it dribbles. The filling should be almost a stew, but with less gravy. A pie can get away with having more gravy in it, as they're usually eaten off a plate. Not always, but usually. A pastie, otoh, is meant to be eaten while being held. hence the big thick crust on one side.

I've even seen oggies, which are a Welsh variant, that had a savoury filling at one end and a sweet one at the other. So it's a meal and a desert all in one. I wasn't a fan, though.
 
Belle Sorciere said:
So I've been ordering a lot of food from pizza restaurants (Domino's, Pizza Hut, and several local restaurants) and I have been not ordering pizza. Been ordering sandwiches, buffalo wings, fries, and a calzone.

Does this make me a bad person?
Click to expand...


I used to order from Little Caesars exclusively for their toasted raviolis. Unfortunately, I dont think they've carried those since the 90s, from the few times I've managed to find a LC since.
 
TristramEvans said:
I used to order from Little Caesars exclusively for their toasted raviolis. Unfortunately, I dont think they've carried those since the 90s, from the few times I've managed to find a LC since.
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Yeah, I used to eat their spaghetti a lot and none of that now. But hey, they have wings and bread.
 
Stevethulhu said:
That looks a bit dry to me. A good pastie needs to be moist enough that you can eat it without needing a drink. But not so wet that it dribbles. The filling should be almost a stew, but with less gravy. A pie can get away with having more gravy in it, as they're usually eaten off a plate. Not always, but usually. A pastie, otoh, is meant to be eaten while being held. hence the big thick crust on one side.

I've even seen oggies, which are a Welsh variant, that had a savoury filling at one end and a sweet one at the other. So it's a meal and a desert all in one. I wasn't a fan, though.
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Muldoons is moister than it looks in the picture. Perhaps not as "wet" as what you might like. But they are damn good. Not as good as my buddies mom, but whose food is as good as mom's right?:smile: I also agree with the thick crust on the side. In the UP it was originally a miner's food, a hand food. Oh, and for folks not familiar with Michigan's Upper Peninsula lots of Finlander blood, a little Cornish, and a tiny smidge of Italian. As far as geography and people, imagine a rural Americanized Finland. Less Volvos, and more pickup trucks.
 
opaopajr said:
This food tangent is the gift that keeps giving... :p
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Oh, sure. When you guys do it, it's gift that keeps on giving. But when I do it, I'm a threadjacking donkey bitch. ;)

*Runs away sobbing*

Also, since it's the day after Halloween: black licorice is the greatest candy in the history of candy, and anyone who thinks differently is clearly engaging in BadWrongCandy and should be banned from this and every site on the Web!
 
noman said:
Oh, sure. When you guys do it, it's gift that keeps on giving. But when I do it, I'm a threadjacking donkey bitch. ;)

*Runs away sobbing*

Also, since it's the day after Halloween: black licorice is the greatest candy in the history of candy, and anyone who thinks differently is clearly engaging in BadWrongCandy and should be banned from this and every site on the Web!
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Liquorice is the spawn of the devil and should be consigned to the Graveyard of Forgotten Sweets at once!

Or, me not liking it means there's more for those strange people who find the foul stuff to be appealing. Both the real thing and that synthetic stuff they sell in America.
 
Stevethulhu said:
Liquorice is the spawn of the devil...
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This is objectively true. It's why I love it and why I get it in bulk.

Stevethulhu said:
Or, me not liking it means there's more for those strange people who find the foul stuff to be appealing. Both the real thing and that synthetic stuff they sell in America.
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I love candy corn, Steve. CANDY CORN! That's my response to your statement.

:grin:
 
I love licorice. I love it as candy. I love it as alcohol (like Finnish Salmiakkikossu). However apparently more than 2 oz. per day over 2 weeks increases your chance for heart arrhythmic episodes :sad:... I am OK with these risks! :cool: I choose to live dangerously.

The secret to keeping up with health news is "If you like it, it's bad for you." :mad: So if we all gotta go someday, I choose to leave my dementia-addled, old folks home years to others, savoring tepid plain oatmeal and chalky nutrient shakes. Mmmm, the golden years. o_O Who wants more life by desperately avoiding to live!? ;)
 
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