Star Wars - The Last Jedi (Spoilers)

[Spinachcat]

It's easy to pick holes in most any movie, but instead let's talk about stuff we enjoyed from TLJ!

I give you...BB-H8!!

 

[Endless Flight]

My daughter and I are going for round two tomorrow. Maybe I'll be able to pick out some things I missed first time around.

 

[Shipyard Locked]

Ouch!:
https://www.reddit.com/r/boxoffice/comments/7m8w8u/dom_the_last_jedi_plummets_nearly_5m_from/

 

[Voros]

LOL, ‘plummets’ and $5M. Nerds be desperate to push their narrative. Mistaking the web for RL as usual.

 

[Stevethulhu]

LOL, ‘plummets’ and $5M. Nerds be desperate to push their narrative. Mistaking the web for RL as usual.

I heard a 69% drop from week 1 to week 2. Which is Justice League levels of bad.

 

[noman]

LOL, ‘plummets’ and $5M. Nerds be desperate to push their narrative. Mistaking the web for RL as usual.

Sorry, Voros, but there's a little more to it than that.

Here's Forbes' take on it (Forbes, SFW, autoplay video): https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottm...-drops-69-tops-100m-losers-club/#59fe3de3dc05

Yeah, it looks like a lot of money to us, and it is, but the drops over time matter to the studio's bottom line. The actual profit margin is smaller than you think, and large studios desperately need large tentpoles like this to make enough profit to not only cover their costs for the movie, but to cover the costs of previous movies that underperformed this year.

Bear in mind that Disney forced theaters to keep this movie on their big screens for at least four weeks running, or suffer a 5% penalty in profits. Despite this its still underperforming.

And for the record, I don't want this movie to fail (It won't "fail' in the sense of it being a dud). I'm interested in the financial impact of major productions like this. I don't have any skin in the "Us vs. Them, Like vs Hate" of the new SW franchise.

And I no longer think it's about narrative; I think a lot of people enjoyed the movie, and a lot of other people really disliked it. I think both sides have have legitimate reason for thinking the way they do.

 

[The Butcher]

I just want to leave this here...

 

[Stevethulhu]

I just want to leave this here...

When you can't spell Dave Prowse's name right, you lose credibility with me.

Also I know where current Darth Vader, Spencer Wilding lives. He still lives in the town he grew up in. Which is the tow I also have lived in for most of my life. And no, I won't tell you where because he is like 9 feet tall and was a champion kickboxer before getting into movies.

 

[Endless Flight]

OK, we just got back from the theater. If this movie is 'failing', my daughter and I sure didn't see it. The theater had more people in it today for a 1 PM showing than it did last Friday at an 8 PM showing. The kids are out of school now and the parents are taking them. Last Friday was mostly adults.

I think people forget just how HUGE The Force Awakens was. Before it was released, there was debate about whether or not it could top Avatar's all-time domestic box office record. It didn't just beat it, it annihilated it. It was a once-in-a-generation movie event. That record won't be broken probably for another 10-15 years, if that.

Disney never expected The Last Jedi to approach those totals and it'll probably finish between $600-650M domestic, and it's well on its way.

 

[Simlasa]

The theater had more people in it today for a 1 PM showing than it did last Friday at an 8 PM showing.

I had the opposite anecdotal story... there were two people in the theater when we walked in (Sunday, noonish, before Xmas) and three more came in after us. We were very surprised.

 

[Endless Flight]

I had the opposite anecdotal story... there were two people in the theater when we walked in (Sunday, noonish, before Xmas) and three more came in after us. We were very surprised.

Wow, that's crazy. When I bought the tickets online this morning, I was kind of surprised by how full it was going to be. I managed to get two seats near the top. Way, way more kids under the age of 12 there than Friday though, which is great to see.

 

[Spinachcat]

Box Office Mojo says $843M so far. I have no doubt it will cross $1B before it leaves the theaters. Right now, its profitable if the movie cost $275M which is probable between Production & Advertising. Also, the profit is only partially from the movie. The ancillary rights (aka toys, games, under-roos) are all gravy train cash BUT more important to even ancillary is long tail. Star Wars is effectively evergreen, aka 20 years from now, the kids of today's kids will be watching TLJ (and that's a constant cash stream). Any studio would kill for this success.

BTW, I can confirm at least one part of that Starlog article. As teens, many of us discussed whether Vader was lying to Luke just to deceive him about being his dad...and when Leia turned out to be Luke's sister, it was squicky and a tad WTF.

Also...I still don't get why Harry didn't hook up with Hermione? You know she divorces Ron.

 

[TristramEvans]

Also...I still don't get why Harry didn't hook up with Hermione? You know she divorces Ron.

Luna Lovelace is the one I would have gone for. But I like my chicks a bit on the crazy side.

 

[Endless Flight]

One of my favorite new additions to Star Wars canon: the Praetorian Guard!

 

[Lunar Ronin]

I read an article somewhere this morning that The Last Jedi has just beat Beauty & The Beast to become the most financially successful film of 2017.

Honestly, the whole "The Force Awakens made a lot more money than The Last Jedi so therefore The Last Jedi must be terribad" argument is hogwash. The Last Jedi isn't doing as well because Hollywood of 2017 itself didn't do as well as Hollywood of 2015. IIRC, Hollywood's 2017 income is the worst it's been in approximately 20 years. The Last Jedi has problems (lol space bombers), but no film doesn't. I think people are just tired of the ever rising Hollywood blockbuster ticket prices (I paid $52 for three tickets to see it last week), the price of movie theater snacks and drinks ($16 for a bottle of water and pretzel bites), and tired of the whole blockbuster thing in general. Super-heroes, pew-pew blasters, and spaceships going BOOM! are all great, but when that's all that's coming out of Hollywood the past decade and in the foreseeable future, people have gotten tired of it.

 

[Stevethulhu]

One of my favorite new additions to Star Wars canon: the Praetorian Guard!

View attachment 210

I liked those guys, at least the way they look. But I thought the fight editing and choreography was lacklustre and lacking in emotional content. Not to mention red and black guys fighting a guy in black who had a red sword in a red and black room made for an uninteresting colour palette.

In terms of the best and worst lighsaber fights in the body of Star Wars media, this one ranks lower for me than just about any in the movies.

I think movie fight scenes now have a very high bar. One that a lot of movies fail to reach, let alone surpass. Action direction can be a specialty field. Maybe Riam Johnson could hire an action director for his next outing.

 

[Endless Flight]

When my daughter and I went to the matinee showing, I paid $17 for two tickets. I then paid about $17 for the bucket of popcorn, a candy bar and a drink. So for two people for 2.5 hours of entertainment, I forked over $35. Not a bargain. I saw movies when I was teenager for $5. I went to movies every week for years because they were cheap entertainment, not because I was making a fortune at $5/hr or whatever I made at 18 years old.

That said, I will still fork over my hard-earned money to see Star Wars every year because it's my first love.

 

[Endless Flight]

In terms of the best and worst lighsaber fights in the body of Star Wars media, this one ranks lower for me than just about any in the movies.

I know this might be sacrilege, but I actually consider the fights in The Empire Strikes Back and A New Hope the best. To me, true masters really don't need to swing their sabers around like they are on Red Bull. I'm not sure if you've seen it, but in one of the recent episodes of Rebels (which is considered canon), Darth Maul came looking for Kenobi on Tatooine. Kenobi killed him (yes, finally,I hope) in three motions. The fight in Revenge of the Sith was probably the worst, and I like that movie the best in the prequels. Overkill.

 

[Stevethulhu]

I know this might be sacrilege, but I actually consider the fights in The Empire Strikes Back and A New Hope the best. To me, true masters really don't need to swing their sabers around like they are on Red Bull. I'm not sure if you've seen it, but in one of the recent episodes of Rebels (which is considered canon), Darth Maul came looking for Kenobi on Tatooine. Kenobi killed him (yes, finally,I hope) in three motions. The fight in Revenge of the Sith was probably the worst, and I like that movie the best in the prequels. Overkill.

I agree about those fights. The choreography for Star Wars wasn't great. But it worked. And in Empire, there was a ton of emotional content. And the same for the fights in Jedi.

A sense that there are things at stake and they the hero can lose are things that can elevate a fight from the mundane to the magnificent. And for me, longer takes in a wide two shot, too. I want to see the footwork, which is one of the things that sells skills more than tight shots and shaky cam ever could.

 

[Endless Flight]

Deadline predicts the movie will be at $536M domestic and a hair over $1B worldwide as of Jan 1. It will be the #1 domestic movie of 2017 after today.

 

[soltakss]

Watched it last night and enjoyed it. Not sure about the ten-second struggles between Dark/Light Side, as I prefer struggles that cover the whole series. The screening was only half-full, but that's probably because it was shown on IMax (terribly expensive), at 1630 and around 2 weeks after it first came out, several people were watching it for the second time, so they must have enjoyed it.

 

[Sommerjon]

When my daughter and I went to the matinee showing, I paid $17 for two tickets. I then paid about $17 for the bucket of popcorn, a candy bar and a drink. So for two people for 2.5 hours of entertainment, I forked over $35. Not a bargain. I saw movies when I was teenager for $5. I went to movies every week for years because they were cheap entertainment, not because I was making a fortune at $5/hr or whatever I made at 18 years old.

That said, I will still fork over my hard-earned money to see Star Wars every year because it's my first love.

I still see movies for 5$. I watch them in the morning before prices increase., 4 of us watch TLJ for 20$ in nice recliner chairs. Thank you AMC

 

[Necrozius]

Saw it for a second time with my wife, my sister and my brother in law. I had read many negative reviews since the 1st viewing, so I put on my critical glasses.

I definitely saw more wrinkles than I expected, but none worse than any other movie in the saga. Just about every plot hole I was able to fill in with my own rationale... which is not sufficient so sway minds, but just in case, here's one for you (spoilers):

Q: why didn't the rebels use that lightspeed battering ram idea with their other ships? They lost a medical frigate and a transport anyway, why didn't they shoot them into the bad guys? They had pilots on them willing to die for the cause...

A: they were smaller ships and might've not had enough fuel to do a jump, or to cause enough damage (the main freighter was really big and had HUGE engines). Or maybe they were still too close to the survivors on board the main transport (that light-speed battering ram maneuver did A FUCK TON of collateral damage). Holdo only did it when the rebels were already much further away (she did the maneuver when it was at a safe distance). Also, maybe such a maneuver isn't possible without very high-ranking credentials (like self-destruct could only be done by high-ranking officers).

This is just an example of how my brain accepted just about every plot hole that I found. But I'm not cynical or jaded about Star Wars. I was a small child with the original three, a teenager with the prequels and I'm consuming these ones as a 30-something and I'm content with them all. I'm very forgiving.

 

[Endless Flight]

That’s an easy one to answer. Ships, soldiers and resources aren’t easy to come by, especially for the Rebellion/Resistance. That only worked in this movie because the size of the target was about three to five times larger than your normal run of the mill star destroyer and she literally had no other options because nobody was manning any other stations. I don’t think it would have worked on the Death Star due to its size either. Too big!

People are nitpicking this movie far more than any previous one to try and take it down. Didn’t work as it’s made over $1.2B worldwide already.

 

[noman]

People are nitpicking this movie far more than any previous one to try and take it down.

Yep. It's a vast, nerd conspiracy of SW haters who are deliberately trying to undermine Disney's profits. I mean, hell. You should see my WreckStarWarsTLJ mailing list: It's crazy full, yo! We're gonna bring this thing down!



Or...and I'm just throwing this out there for consideration...or maybe a lot of people saw the movie, didn't like it at all, and want to express their dislike about it the way people often want to do.

Didn’t work as it’s made over $1.2B worldwide already.

Most of that is international, of which 1% to 3% of that 1.2 billion will be net, at most. Domestic first weekend was around 220 million. A movie like this, a SW movie no less, would have hit 250 to 300 mil its first weekend a few years ago.

Did it make money? You bet. It's SW; SW is going to make money. Just not as much as it should have. Hardly matters, though. They've got more movies planned out of the next twenty years.

Look, I get that you love SW, and you liked the movie, and there's not a single damn thing wrong with that. But suggesting that the people who didn't like the movie are haters with an agenda is a little much.

 

[Endless Flight]

I've got no problem with legitimate criticisms and people who dislike the movie. Not every movie is going to be enjoyed by everyone. There were a lot of valid complaints about the prequels and I couldn't really argue against some of them. The reason I got upset at the prequel haters had more to do with the venom spewed at George Lucas more than anything else.

With The Last Jedi, I notice many of the complaints are disingenuous. One example would be the bombers in the opening sequence. People were saying things like "How could they drops bombs in space with no gravity???? What is wrong with you, Disney?? You can't even get basic science right!!!!" Many of these people probably played with their Star Wars TIE Fighters and X-Wings toys as kids and made all those cool noises...the *whooshes*, the *pew pews*, the *ka-booms*. You know, the sounds you hear in space...

I can accept valid criticisms, but to me things like the above are absurd. There are more of those too.

 

[noman]

I've got no problem with legitimate criticisms and people who dislike the movie. Not every movie is going to be enjoyed by everyone. There were a lot of valid complaints about the prequels and I couldn't really argue against some of them. The reason I got upset at the prequel haters had more to do with the venom spewed at George Lucas more than anything else.

I agree. And many of those same people who were hating on Lucas are now wishing he had had some creative input in the movies. Now they're hating on Disney for pushing him out (as well as Evil Big Company that ruined Art).

With The Last Jedi, I notice many of the complaints are disingenuous. One example would be the bombers in the opening sequence. People were saying things like "How could they drops bombs in space with no gravity???? What is wrong with you, Disney?? You can't even get basic science right!!!!" Many of these people probably played with their Star Wars TIE Fighters and X-Wings toys as kids and made all those cool noises...the *whooshes*, the *pew pews*, the *ka-booms*. You know, the sounds you hear in space...

Getting upset about the space bombers in a franchise that has FTL travel, directed energy weapons the size of a large handgun, swordblades of plasma held together in a magnetic field, sound in the vacuum of space, and my personal favorite, space-based combat that mimics atmospheric dogfigthing, is silly nitpicking bullshit. I'm in complete agreement with you here.

But I think it's a mistake to point at the bomber issue as the core complaint, and then assume this is the foundation upon which most criticism is built. That's not been my experience, both in my discussions AFK as well as from what I've seen of criticisms online. The focus is mostly to do with writing quality, in that many people seem to think it's terrible.

And I'm cynical enough to dismiss the haters, Endless, given that such hate can generate a lot of clicks and push up add revenue. I really did believe that the low ratings and (arguable) underperformance of the movie was anti-Disney FUD. I was on board with the idea that it wasn't about the actual quality of the movie.

Then I saw it.

And now I think almost all of the criticisms, other than the space bomber and related subjects, are spot on. And I get the hate, which I'll freely admit I'm not comfortable experiencing. From this perspective, I believe most of the people who are complaining about TLJ online are doing so as honestly as they can. I dismiss the notion that it's just petty nitpicking at this point.

There's as much legitimacy for the people who hated the movie as there is for the people who loved it.

You know, this kind of thing reminds me of the white / gold dress controversy a few years ago. Human perception isn't consistent, something that scares the hell out of me sometimes. But it makes me believe that your love for TLJ or my hate for it, has little bearing on the objective value of the movie itself. At the end of the day, it's about how the movie affects us, subjectively.

 

[Endless Flight]

But it makes me believe that your love for TLJ or my hate for it, has little bearing on the objective value of the movie itself. At the end of the day, it's about how the movie affects us, subjectively.

Absolutely! I'll admit it, I'm a fanboy when it comes to SW. I have liked every installment that's been released, warts and all. I honestly asked myself if I could ever hate a Star Wars movie and the answer was no, partially because it taps into something very special from my childhood that I wished I could get back at times and partially because I don't think any future Star Wars movie could be as bad as Attack of the Clones.

 

[Lunar Ronin]

Word on the street is that the Han Solo movie is about to give The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones a run for their money, and that Disney has essentially already written the movie off as a loss. We'll see.

 

[Warthur]

Q: why didn't the rebels use that lightspeed battering ram idea with their other ships? They lost a medical frigate and a transport anyway, why didn't they shoot them into the bad guys? They had pilots on them willing to die for the cause...

My rationale is that it's very complicated to do. The lightspeed battering ram effect is mainly a risk at the point of transition into hyperspace; kick off the charge too early, and you just go into hyperspace and stop interacting with regular matter (a necessary assumption since ships don't spontaneously explode due to hitting undiscovered rocks during hyperspace jumps), do it too late and you don't get nearly the same bang for your buck (in particular, you give the target's countermeasures time to kick in). It may well be that the job is entirely non-viable with smaller ships because their "transition zone" into hyperspace is too short.

Holdo needed to do the move at just the right moment, based on the distance between her and the pursuing ships, the acceleration of the ship's drives, and any loss of acceleration due to the fuel depletion. She was also helped by the fact that she was aiming at a HUGE fucking target, which meant that the window of opportunity was a bit wider than it otherwise would have been.

This neatly also explains why she waited to do it - she needed to wait until Snoke's capital ship was at the right position to make it happen. As far as why she didn't have people do it on the other ships - a) the fact that she piloted the main ship herself suggests that she isn't willing to order other people into suicide missions, and b) once one ship had done it, the element of surprise would have been lost, and since the "transition zones" for the other ships would be shorter than for the main ship since they were smaller then once the main ship had done its attack the remaining Order forces would have been aware that the other ships might do the same and adapt accordingly.

Also, the sacrifice of the other ships meant that it was more of a surprise when she made her move with the main ship, which maximised her chances of successfully getting a hit on Snoke's flagship.

 

[Endless Flight]

Word on the street is that the Han Solo movie is about to give The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones a run for their money, and that Disney has essentially already written the movie off as a loss. We'll see.

One of the few reasons I am looking forward to it was to see what Donald Glover can do with Lando. Overall I’m just not sure about the movie.

 

[Warthur]

The difference between Solo and Rogue One is that Rogue One has a really clear story hook: "Let's tell how the raid to obtain the Death Star plans went down".

On the other hand Solo has a central character but no apparent hook beyond "Let's tell a story about young Han Solo". I fear that it will descend into self-congratulatory jerking off about what a cool character Han Solo is as a result of not having any especially strong story to tell about him.

 

[Voros]

The guys who made the Lego films were the inital directors so I suspect they found a good story to tell as they are talented. But I believe they were removed and replaced by the epitome of the company-man-as-director Ron Howard? I suspect it will end up being a mediocrity but not unwatchable, like most of Howard’s films.

I wonder why the Lego guys were removed? Budget/schedule problems or did they want to do something too different/radical than what the Disney suits were comfortable with?

 

[Endless Flight]

They rubbed Kathleen Kennedy the wrong way. That’s all it takes. If you rub her the right way, like Rian Johnson did, not only do you get to write and direct the newest Episode, but you are awarded a future trilogy. If you do bad, like Colin Trevorrow, you are forever banished from Skywalker Ranch.

 

[S'mon]

Only the good things... Well I hated the movie overall for its deconstructivist approach to the mythos, but I did enjoy the Rey/Kylo Ren scenes together. Both good actors, and their characters weren't totally trashed by the script. In general the acting in these new films has been better than in the Prequel Trilogy. And less JarJar Binks, too.

(S'mon trying to be nice, because this is rpgpub - No Blasters!!)

 

[Spinachcat]

I enjoyed Attack of the Clones!!
There may have been some kind of plot and dialogue, but I remember enjoying several terrific battle scenes.

As for Last Jedi, I am super cool with space bombers.
But I'm a 40k fan.

I am not cool with the ramming maneuver because if it was possible, it would be the standard tactic in the setting.
But I'm not gonna get a hate-on because of it, but it ain't gonna be a PC or NPC option at my table.

 

[Warthur]

I wonder why the Lego guys were removed? Budget/schedule problems or did they want to do something too different/radical than what the Disney suits were comfortable with?

The reports I heard suggested that they wanted to go full-on comedic with it. Which I guess is playing to their own strengths, but on the other hand might not be so suitable for the backstory of an established character whose arc needs to culminate in getting stabbed by his dirtbag emo son.

 

[Warthur]

Re: space bombers... look, this is the movie series where in the original film the final space battle is essentially the Dambusters raid in space. If you are upset about WWII-esque technology and battle tactics in your space battles then that ship has not only sailed, but it was clearly advertised as going in that direction right from the beginning.

 

[S'mon]

Re: space bombers... look, this is the movie series where in the original film the final space battle is essentially the Dambusters raid in space. If you are upset about WWII-esque technology and battle tactics in your space battles then that ship has not only sailed, but it was clearly advertised as going in that direction right from the beginning.

I was fine with the space bomber concept. Losing an entire squadron to a stray piece of space debris (a TIE Fighter wing AIR) was pushing it though - aside from Poe Dameron the Rebels seemed incredibly incompetent this time round.

 

[Stevethulhu]

I am not cool with the ramming maneuver because if it was possible, it would be the standard tactic in the setting.
But I'm not gonna get a hate-on because of it, but it ain't gonna be a PC or NPC option at my table.

In the same way that ramming and kamikaze fighter attacks are standard naval and air tactics today. I don't see how that logic works. A one for one exchange of ships, and an exchange that only damages the enemy vessel instead of destroying it, seems a very expensive waste to me.