The Last Jedi (and related Star Wars talk)

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Endless Flight said:
I'll admit though, I'm an unabashed Star Wars fan and I give the franchise a lot more leeway than a lot of other people would. My family and friends basically knows I'm the SW nut out of anybody. My dad took me to see the first one when I was like four or five. George Lucas is one of the top two people (the other is Larry Hama) who shaped my world of entertainment as a child (and even as a 44 year old) who I can never repay. I just love it.
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Yeah, I can criticize Lucas. I can even get mad at him for not letting me buy original editions of his movie, but I can't hate the guy. I think the original movies were much more of a collaborative experience that Lucas ever seems to acknowledge, but he made that collaboration happen.
 
I think Mark Hamill said that there are three people who really shaped the success of Star Wars: George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, and John Williams. If you remove any of those three, it isn't the same. But since Lucas created it, I default to him.
 
Endless Flight said:
I think Mark Hamill said that there are three people who really shaped the success of Star Wars: George Lucas, Ralph McQuarrie, and John Williams. If you remove any of those three, it isn't the same. But since Lucas created it, I default to him.
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I think Mark left out Lucas' first wife, whose editing really shaped star wars into a success
 
I love Vader. I hate Anakin. Anakin is a whiny dbag. His whiny dbagness is the thing that seriously damages the films for me.
 
I can only imagine how hard it is to be a Star Wars fan in this day and age, with every discussion eventually turning into complaints about the prequels.
 
I enjoyed the prequels, even the Fart'em Menace. While Anakin and Padme and Palpitine were boring and crapass, there were plenty of interesting NPCs. Plus the wuxia light saber action with great fun and John Williams work was consistently excellent. Duel of the Fates is one of his best pieces of music.

I found Rogue One's Jyn Erso a more interesting character than Rey. I am unsure if its the bad writing for Rey or the bad acting. I was really stunned how the entire TFA cast were incredibly weak performers. A dozen TV shows boast a stronger cast.

The newest trailer didn't inspire me. The entire problem with the Jedi isn't the Jedi Order. It's the Skywalkers who are all whiny assholes.
 
Spinachcat said:
I found Rogue One's Jyn Erso a more interesting character than Rey. I am unsure if its the bad writing for Rey or the bad acting. I was really stunned how the entire TFA cast were incredibly weak performers. A dozen TV shows boast a stronger cast.
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I see a lot of people complaining about Rouge One. Spelling deliberate, btw.

The thing is, what I see is a tribute to those WW2 movies like The Dirty Dozen. Where an unlikely team of people who should really be in jail is sent on a suicide mission. And by the end,they've learned that maybe their past actions weren't so good after all. And then one by one, they give their lives for the cause they've discovered was really worth fighting for.

I'm not sure what other people see, but Rouge One is for me the closest Star Wars has ever got to an actual war movie. I mean, if Star Wars and TFA are The Dam Busters and R1 is The Dirty Dozen, they need to do a Navy movie, maybe a pastiche of Run Silent, Run Deep or Sink the Bismarck.

As for interesting characters n TFA, only Finn really counts as far as I can tell.
 
Stevethulhu said:
The thing is, what I see is a tribute to those WW2 movies like The Dirty Dozen.
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Precisely! That's how I interpreted it from the start and loved it because of that. It was far more interesting and compelling (to me) than any video game, EU or fan-fiction that's out there.
 
TristramEvans said:
I can only imagine how hard it is to be a Star Wars fan in this day and age, with every discussion eventually turning into complaints about the prequels.
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They have to look at the bright side. The prequels are over and done with, and at least Quentin Tarantino isn't making a R-rated Star Wars film. Yet.
 
Apparition said:
They have to look at the bright side. The prequels are over and done with, and at least Quentin Tarantino isn't making a R-rated Star Wars film. Yet.
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Oh now I want a Guy Ritchie Star Wars!
 
Okay, I'm going to do something a little different for a change. I'm going to do a reverse rant.

I'm going to turn off my franchise haterade for a moment, and channel some lubby-dubby-happy juice.*

The Original three movies: Were they flawed? Of course. What movie isn't. But they were amazing! They brought space opera to the big screen for the first time, and they defined a generation. Call them awesome and move on.

The prequels: Were they flawed? Hell yes. Jarjar, too long pod race, off-putting alien races that came across as racial stereotypes, titanic plot holes and nonsensical character decisions, just to name a few.

But we got to see real jedi do real jedi things for the first time. Not some kid trying to become a jedi, or a couple of washed up has-beens, but actual, fully powered jedi. And that was freaking awesome! Phantom menace is worth watching just for that ! Not to mention Dark FUCKING Maul!!! Amazing underwater adventure, monsters, and cities! Just great stuff.

The later two prequals did what they were supposed to do: they fleshed out the universe and set up the background for the later movies. Did they do it well? Hell no! But they did it, and it was enjoyable despite its flaws.

I got to see a lot more of Sideous, and I loved every minute he was on camera. I loved the seduction of Anakin and the resulting corruption. IMO, the best part of the latter two prequels.

I loved the fact that the Jedi are full of shit in everything they say. Either by accident or design, their part in Anakin's fall is wonderfully done.

And let's talk about Christensen. Is he a good actor? No. HE'S A GREAT ACTOR!!!

He's a great actor because years have passed since the movies premier, years since he played that role, and even years since he left that role behind, people still hate him as Anakin.

But we're supposed to hate him as Anakin! That's the whole point! Anakin was a whiny teenage douche with too much power he didn't know how to handle who wanted to do things other people didn't want him to do and he didn't begin to stop being a whiny douche and start doing the things he wanted to do until he told the people telling him what to do to fuck off.

Just like Luke. Exactly like Luke.

Luke's transition from whiny teenage douche to Jedi = Anakin's transition from whiny teenage douche to Sith. And in both cases, they're whiny teenage douches stumbling towards power because what teenager isn't a whiny douche? Except in their cases, they actually had the means to achieve the power they wanted while being continually reminded how special they were. You think ego isn't a part of their character?

And what's more, they only took hold of that power when they allowed themselves to rebel, to turn their backs on their teachers and set out on their own.

Star Wars is a tale of teenage rebellion, and in order to rebel effectively as a teenager, you have to be a whiny douche.

I argue that Hamil and Christensen understood this aspect of their characters, and both tried to bring this to life. Hamill did a better job than Christensen, because Hamil's a better actor. But I believe Christensen also understood this, and emulated Hamil in his portrayal of Anakin. I argue that Christensen's portrayal of Anakin as an annoying, whiny douche is his attempt to emulate Harmil's portrayal of Luke.

The fact that we're all still mad about it says how effective he was. :grin:

As for the new movies, Meh. I'm not going to go into them as much other than to say they're not bad. They're not bad movies. They are not going have the same magic as the originals, but they're still good for what they are: sci-fi action movies.

My only real complaint about them is Rey as a mary sue. Imagine how you'd feel if you sit down at the gaming table and are then forced to party up with the GMs OP pet NPC. That's how I feel about Rey.

But that's just me, and YMMV.

My point to this titanic reverse rant is that the movies are not bad. They're good for what they are, and the people who enjoy them should enjoy enjoying them and tell the haters (like me) to STFU and watch Firefly reruns or something. :fu:

Endless Flight has exactly the right attitude about the movies.

noman out. :hurry:

EDIT: spelling.

* Not a euphemism!
 
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As another weirdo who enjoys the prequels, i fully endorse noman’s post.

Well except the bit about Rey. But otherwise I am in full agreement :smile:
 
Necrozius said:
Well except the bit about Rey.
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Got to admit, she really does check off a lot of the Mary Sue boxes though, which could easily be forgiven if the performance were more original, credible or flavored. This most readily apparent to me in her scenes with Finn, making me wish he'd gotten more screen time.

If I'm honest though, I might just be a bit jaded on this score because I feel like I've seen her character a thousand times before in other stories and it was already getting tiresome after the first dozen iterations. I don't know why, but whenever I think of her I think of Elizabeth Swann from the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, who is not stellar either but has better moments to work with, holds her own better in the cast and feels more 'balanced' in a gaming sense.
 
I'm kinda hoping Rey goes bad and Han and Leia's son turns good.

Then Finn and Poe make out hard.
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Shipyard Locked said:
Got to admit, she really does check off a lot of the Mary Sue boxes though, which could easily be forgiven if the performance were more original, credible or flavored. This most readily apparent to me in her scenes with Finn, making me wish he'd gotten more screen time.
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The one essential trait a character needs to meet the definiton of a Mary Sue is for the character to a self-insert based on the writer. I don't think Rey meets that.

Lucas naming his main character Luke sets off alarm bells though.
 
Baulderstone Baulderstone

Seriously, though. The definition of MS is up for grabs, as it's a community slang term with no official technical meaning. So going with that, you're right. I'd argue that's it's not the only, or even primary definition. As every definition I've seen has been something to the effect of a character being 'awesome' at every thing they do, the 'everything' being key, with very few flaws or weaknesses.

*Shrugs*

Doesn't mean she can't be fun character, though.
 
An interesting alternate view on Rey...
 
I read that comparison sheet until I got to the "Millunniom Falcon".

I'm not sure if that's how kids spell it these days, but I checked out after that.
 
Endless Flight said:
I read that comparison sheet until I got to the "Millunniom Falcon".

I'm not sure if that's how kids spell it these days, but I checked out after that.
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The spelling and grammar for many of these memes are worst than mine. :sad:
 
noman said:
Baulderstone Baulderstone

Seriously, though. The definition of MS is up for grabs, as it's a community slang term with no official technical meaning. So going with that, you're right. I'd argue that's it's not the only, or even primary definition. As every definition I've seen has been something to the effect of a character being 'awesome' at every thing they do, the 'everything' being key, with very few flaws or weaknesses.
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The term actually has a very specific origin. Paula Smith, an editor for the '70s fanzine Menagerie, noticed a trend of fan fic submitted by women that included a character that was a thinly veiled version of the author. On top of being a self-insert, the character is always the youngest of whatever rank they hold, everyone they meet falls in love with them, and they die a tragic death at the end of the story, mourned by everyone.

Paula Smith wrote a parody of the formula called "A Trekkie's Tale" starring a fifteen-year-old, half Vulcan character named Lt. Mary Sue. Stories following that formula where then named Mary Sue stories.

There are very few terms in language where the origin and original meaning are so clear.
 
Baulderstone said:
The term actually has a very specific origin. Paula Smith, an editor for the '70s fanzine Menagerie, noticed a trend of fan fic submitted by women that included a character that was a thinly veiled version of the author. On top of being a self-insert, the character is always the youngest of whatever rank they hold, everyone they meet falls in love with them, and they die a tragic death at the end of the story, mourned by everyone.

Paula Smith wrote a parody of the formula called "A Trekkie's Tale" starring a fifteen-year-old, half Vulcan character named Lt. Mary Sue. Stories following that formula where then named Mary Sue stories.

There are very few terms in language where the origin and original meaning are so clear.
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This is interesting and supports your point. I cheerfully concede as to the meaning of the term. :smile:

But Rey is still a Mary Sue. :hehe:
 
Baulderstone said:
Prometheus is a movie where I can agree with most every criticism that is made against, and I still really enjoy it. As I get older, I get better at being acknowledge a movies failings and still enjoy what works.

That doesn't mean I can enjoy everything though. I caught some of Revenge of the Sith on TV the other night, and it still doesn't work for me on any level.
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I felt the same way about Prometheus. I also agree very much about not worrying about flaws in a film as much as I get older. To me it is the movie as a whole that matters. And some films have a strong enough element or performance to compensate for its weaknesses for me to appreciate. Some films are even a mass of flaws and that can be part of their fascination (Lynch’s Dune for instance).
 
Endless Flight said:
She could be Mary Sue or Mary Lou, I still love her.
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One thing very much in Ridley’s favour is she is a very charismatic screen presence, in that way she is also like Gadot. Not sure one can say either are great actors but in that way they are almost throwbacks to a certain kind of Hollywood actor of the 40s/50s (Novak, Kelly, Monroe, Peck).

But it is a bit hard to judge the acting in the SW films, Oscar Isaac for instance is a terrific actor but has been given very little opportunity to show that in SW so far. Robert Pattison has proven himself a good actor despite the wooden performances in Twilight.

Hamill has grown into a pretty fine actor but in the SW films he was a bit of a charisma blackhole (if you doubt that suffer through Corvette Summer sometime). It will be fun to see what he can do now in the Last Jedi as I think he is a much more capable actor.
 
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Endless Flight said:
I read that comparison sheet until I got to the "Millunniom Falcon".

I'm not sure if that's how kids spell it these days, but I checked out after that.
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A pity, despite the typos it's a pretty good summary of why the character grates on some people. Comparing her to Anakin in Phantom Menace is also interesting.

Baulderstone said:
The term actually has a very specific origin.
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Nothing about the term's history invalidates Noman's point that the term has acquired an additional and very, very frequently used meaning. Rejecting it only complicates these conversations.

Voros said:
One thing very much in Ridley’s favour is she is a very charismatic screen presence, in that way she is also like Gadot.
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:quiet: Did we watch the same actress?

I'll agree with Hamill lacking in charisma. The farmboy archetype did a lot of the heavy lifting for him.
 
Baulderstone said:
Tarantino making a Star Wars movie!? You'd end up with some crazy pastiche of westerns, gangsters,WW II and wuxia movies. I can't see how any of that fits in Star Wars.
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That sounds so insanely awesome.

Quentin now must do a scifi flick.
 
TristramEvans said:
I'm kinda hoping Rey goes bad and Han and Leia's son turns good.
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THAT would be fascinating, but far too bold for the studio.

I had hoped Lucas would have gone Darth Jar Jar in Revenge of the Sith with the bumbling Jar Jar revealing his true and deeply powerful nature, aka Drunken Monkey Jedi style, with Jar Jar boasting to Padme how he had been engineering their downfall from day one.
 
noman said:
Star Wars is a tale of teenage rebellion, and in order to rebel effectively as a teenager, you have to be a whiny douche.
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Ferris Bueller and Marty McFly don't agree.

Skywalkers are just a suckass family line.
 
Shipyard Locked said:
Nothing about the term's history invalidates Noman's point that the term has acquired an additional and very, very frequently used meaning.
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While the correct usage of the term has a number of elements to it, the crucial element to Paula Smith was that the main character be an author insert. This was considered very bad form in the Star Trek fan fic scene.

I've always found that made it a useful term in RPG discussions as GMPCs are a similar kind of unwelcome author insert. People using the term incorrectly though has made the term less useful over the years. The incorrect use of the term is simple enough that it really doesn't justify needing a new term, while the correct definition is complex enough to justify it. It's easy just to say that you think Rey is too powerful and things come to easy for her,. It takes a lot longer to sum what is meant by someone being a Mary Sue.

Rejecting it only complicates these conversations.
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What's the point of having an Internet discussion about Star Wars if we aren't going to dig into a minutia?
 
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