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CRKrueger said:
Sorry, but no.
Having the opinion that someone else is being political is not political.
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You acknowledged that he brought it up in a political way.

You already acknowledged that he was being political:

CRKrueger said:
It's not difficult.
Daniel was saying the writers of Discovery are going to use Discovery as a means of demonstrating their political views.
Let's bring it around to gaming.
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You can't have it both ways. It can't both be political and not political. If you're commenting on someone's political views or how they present those views, you're being political.
 
CRKrueger said:
Dunno about Daniel, but Noman is taking a break it looks like.
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Well, if he feels he needs to. I don't think I was unfair insisting that political buzzwords are not okay. I like noman, really, I liked talking with him in the rpg forums. Hopefully he wont quit forever over that.
 
David Johansen said:
What about a rule against discussing whether things are political or not? :grin:
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Yeah, its not going to be okay outside of this thread, which has a limited lifespan
deathandthehourglass.png
 
Sorciere, Krueger...

Darn it you two, there's no victory worth having here!

5rtpp13.gif
 
Or to put a finer point on it, I guess, we're both talking about my motivations, and between the two of us I am the only one qualified to report what they are.
 
TristramEvans said:
Well, if he feels he needs to. I don't think I was unfair insisting that political buzzwords are not okay. I like noman, really, I liked talking with him in the rpg forums. Hopefully he wont quit forever over that.
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That's so sweet.

People care about me! Whoohoo! :p

Tristram, don't lock the thread yet. I've got something to post. Writing it now. About an hour or so, maybe.
 
Belle Sorciere said:
You acknowledged that he brought it up in a political way.

You already acknowledged that he was being political:



You can't have it both ways. It can't both be political and not political. If you're commenting on someone's political views or how they present those views, you're being political.
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Nope. You can say it a thousand times, it doesn't make it true. If I think you're inserting your political views into your television series, that's my opinion on your behavior, it's not a political view in any possible sense of the term. If I argue for or against your political views, whatever they happen to be, then I am being political.

"Rush Limbaugh expresses Right-Wing, conservative views" is not a political statement.
Political:
  • "relating to the government or the public affairs of a country"
  • "relating to the ideas or strategies of a particular party or group in politics"
  • "interested in or active in politics"
  • "motivated or caused by a person's beliefs or actions concerning politics"
  • "relating to, affecting, or acting according to the interests of status or authority within an organization rather than matters of principle"
The only way to label Daniel's use of the term as political is to assume that he called the Discovery writers out on inserting their political views because he disagreed with their political views, number 4.

However identifying virtue-signaling is not counter-signaling.
 
Belle Sorciere said:
Or to put a finer point on it, I guess, we're both talking about my motivations, and between the two of us I am the only one qualified to report what they are.
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I don't really care what your motivations are. Even if your motivation is purely non-political, and you simply think using the term virtue-signaling is political, you're objectively wrong: your conclusion is incorrect.
 
Shipyard Locked said:
Ok, so here's how I see it.

The term 'virtue signalling' isn't the issue because the post that used it is still up and I used it in this very thread without incident.

The issue is we have two posters who clashed, and let's be perfectly honest, one leans toward a controversial social movement and one leans away from that controversial movement. Both stand accused of looking to score secret subversion points.

This one incident, the only serious data point we've had so far, is being used as a be-all-end-all litmus test for the site's two stressed out and merely human mods: when things come to a head, will they unconsciously or deliberately 'favor' leaning toward the controversial social movement or leaning away from the controversial social movement?

The most concerned among us have concluded to varying degrees that the mods failed the test and leaned controversial. They supposedly came down hard on Daniel and let Sorciere off scot free and unexamined. Having read all the posts, I disagree.

Daniel was not banned, excoriated, or restricted in any way. Sorciere grossly overstepped later, got called out on it, and then apologized. Daniel vanished of his own free will (unfortunate). Sorciere is still posting perfectly neutral gaming comments.

They both erred, but I don't see either of them in metaphorical gibbets. it wasn't a big deal and we're overreacting, doing exactly what we claimed to have come to this forum to avoid. This single incident, which has resulted in no banned people or words, is only a deal-breaker if you really want it to be.

Those who know Tristram know damn well he isn't beholden to either end of the spectrum we're concerned about. You goddamn know it. If I really need to, I could start copy pasting his posts from other venues that made his beliefs clear long before he became a mod here.

But hey, if we still need to solve this in the long term, then here's my advice Tristram: Whenever the second data point comes along, favor the opposite side so that way people know you're fair! Then just keep them balanced from there on out.

Yes, obviously that last comment was sarcasm.

So come on people, let's get back to games already!
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This is what I was waiting for.

Leave it to Shipyard to provide a crucial byte of data. :smile:

I'd like to ask for the mod's indulgence with this post; I'm about to get nuttier than usual.

Also, you might want to reread this if you choose to reply.

First, I have no objection to Tristram's or Endless' actions regarding this matter. As far as I'm concerned, both men conducted themselves responsibly. Daniel wasn't banned, as several people have pointed out. Any exercise of moderator authority was light, non-coercive, and reasonable.

With regard to the issue of political language, let me state for the record that I don't give a fuck. Believe that political terminology is inherently political, or believe that political terminology is neutral in and of itself. Whatever. Define your language however you want. Define mine, if you want. I may or may not play along. Irrelevant.

Allow political terminology or police it as you see fit. This isn't my concern.

"But this is a complete contradiction of everything you wrote about this!"

Yes, yes it is. Thanks for paying attention.

Second, I don't care about what Tristram, Endless, Daniel, or Belle did or didn't do. I don't care about their politics. I care about the exchange of information. I care about how that information interacts and is processed by the system.

See, the great thing about the Pub is I got here at its infancy. I couldn't do that with theRPGsite, RPG.net, or any of the other systems I've had a interest in. Here, I get to watch how a system adapts to information anomalies from the start.

Imagine a community, not as the people who make it up, but as an information system containing different nodes (people) constantly exchanging information. A community as a computer network. Following this model, one can think of a community as a networked computer system, constantly dealing with input and output, constantly processing and organizing data into useable information. Constantly seeking to evolve.

Each system is a subsystem to a greater system. As above, so below, motherfuckers.

Information exchanges are puzzles. To solve the puzzle, you try to understand the subsystem the information exchange belongs to. Do this, and you begin to understand both the smaller subsystems and greater macro-systems that your system is part of.

Pundit would immediately get where I'm going with this.

The problem with any system is it needs to be able to constantly adapt in order to thrive. A system can't remain static. It also needs to be able to adapt to new information that doesn't immediately fit into the contained, native information of the system. What I call information anomalies. Foreign elements within the datasphere.

When a foreign element -- an information anomaly -- enters a system, the system seeks to process that foreign data. What it's trying to achieve is some kind of informational balance -- a way to reconcile the new data with the old data. It's seeking equilibrium. It's seeking internal harmony.

If you're stressed about the current vitriol of U.S. politics, look at it this way. It's not that people are losing it, are hateful, are right or wrong, or that we're failing as a country. We're a massive, national computer system that's running a program that's seeking to understand, organize, and reconcile conflicting ideas. We're simply a learning machine, and we're trying to evolve.

The world is transitioning from an industrial/nuclear economy to an information economy. There's always severe unrest whenver a civilization goes through a major transition like this.

Getting back to the Pub, the importance for me regarding the Daniel incident isn't the mod intervention or any related policy. It's the interaction of the information between the nodes involved: Daniel, the mods, CRK, me, Belle, etc.

I got to watch, at close range, an infant system attempt to process its first foreign element (the issue of Daniel and the problem of political language). You can mark the beginning of the process from the point Belle engaged Daniel regarding his language to Shipyward's post above. That's the start and end point. By now, the system has adapted. Any debate or argument at this point is merely aftershocks.

I've never experienced anything like this before. I can't begin to tell you how important this was for me. I've learned so much.

Third and finally, the wrap up.

No doubt most of you think I'm fucking high. Nope. Clean and sober, as always. This is S-Class Flat-Earth weirdness, and normally I'd never talk about this kind of thing, but I'm damn grateful for what I've learned here. I thought I'd put it out there and let people make of it whatever they will. Think I'm nuts if you want. You're not necessarily wrong.

I never had any intent of quitting the Pub. I need a good RPG forum, and I like you guys. I put up the "This forum member is no longer active" sig in order to take myself fully and completely out of the process. I didn't want to fuck it up with unnecessary posts.

Tristram, Endless, I apologize for any stress or frustration I may have caused you. *Japanese bow*

Belle, Horus, Baulderstone, and anyone I may have offended, I likewise apologize.

I have absolutely nothing against any of you. I think you guys are great. :smile:

I have no interest in contesting the mods' decisions in the future. Anybody else, and I wouldn't write this. But it's Tristram and Endless, and I respect you guys. Unless you completely lose it, I know the Pub is in good hands.

Heh. I do believe this is the wackiest thing I've written on an open forum.

I do love being me. :cool:
 
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Shipyard Locked said:
Sorciere, Krueger...

Darn it you two, there's no victory worth having here!
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Technically speaking, I "won" a while ago, although that's not exactly true, since I don't think Tristram's mind was changed at all. He has basically agreed with me about the usage of the term, and isn't declaring it a political buzz-word that needs to be banned. But you're right in that having the English language defined by the dictionary and not by Tweets and +1's isn't a "victory". It's simply this place not going off the deep end.
 
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So Noman, you feel like sharing what you learned?
 
So, me thinks "virtue signalling" is basically the same as "trying too hard" or even "protesting too much".

I wonder if we could build a functional list of loaded terms to avoid and acceptable alternatives.

I don't know, it's a little silly, but a tight list of terms or topics that are verboten might be useful.

Gamer Gate, Donald Trump, Virtue Signalling, Anarco Capitalist, Swine, BLM, are all fairly toxic right now. I'm not sure where I'd sit on Neo-Nazi, if you can't discuss Hydra or Mr. Gold's allies without being political it's hard to discuss superheroes. I think calling anyone that who doesn't self identify as a Nazi or fascist is pretty much a personal attack even if it's valid. So, it's a politically charged term, especially this summer with all the protests and marches, but I think avoiding calling real people that or talking about real neo-nazis and fascists probably covers it. It can be tricky, any wealthy, right-wing, politician in any superhero or mercenary game could easily be mistaken as a stand in for the current president. Senator Kelly from X-Men for example.

Maybe "don't go around looking for fights" would work as a rule. I know I've been guilty in the past. I love a good scrap. And there's times when I've knowingly vented aggression and frustration on-line or even posted contentious opinions just to get a rise out of people.
 
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You could go ahead and come up with a list of terms everyone agrees upon are outlawed, and then someone reports Shipyard for political micro-aggressions, since he insinuated that Daniel's viewpoint is non-controversial and Belle's is, thus making a political value judgement, an inherently political view. ;)

It would be better to say...
  • Webster's or the OED defines terms, not the Urban DIctionary website.
  • Not everything is political.
  • "No Politics" does not mean you have a right not to be offended.
  • Being the squeaky Report wheel isn't going to get you Moderation grease.
  • Everyone, especially that blowhard Krueger, get the fuck over yourselves already.
 
CRKrueger said:
So Noman, you feel like sharing what you learned?
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I changed my mind.

I'm still processing the data, but there's one thing I'm pretty sure of.

Assume for a moment that human thought and emotion are simply information. As human beings, we're transmitting and receiving that information all the time.

That information can be transmitted and received outside of simple language. Most of our communication is non-verbal, for example. But the key here is emotion.

Ever been around someone who's really negative all the time? I mean, can't say a good thing about anything? That black mood is infectious. You have to fight to keep from getting down yourself. Same with somebody who's genuinely cheerful; you feel better when around them.

Laughter is infectious. So is anger. Watch a mob; you'll see what I mean.

So assume all of that.

My priority is to understand why some systems fail. Until now, I've been assuming a system fails because of the presence of a single, toxic, infectious node contaminating the rest of the system. Like a virus, a single human or group of humans that promote a toxic information transmission that screws things up for everybody else. It plants weeds of entropy that slowly overtake the rest of the garden.

That's been my assumption until now. Recent experiences have had me reevaluate that assumption.

Let's look at this whole thing with Daniel. Is he a toxic node? Is Belle? Me? Tristram? You? No. Certainly not. No one in this situation is 'toxic'. No one in this situation is a weed. We're all human. We're nothing more or less than that.

It's not about the nodes. It's about the interaction of the information. Specifically, it's about the conflict between new data and old data, and how that conflict is reconciled.

In the case of Daniel, this issue has been mostly resolved. The system has, or is in the process of reaching, a state of equilibrium on the matter. Whether one agrees with the outcome here or not is irrelevant; the system's ability to adapt to the new information is the only important metric. The Pub did that.

And because of this, it didn't fail.

But what if it didn’t. What if, for whatever reason, the system refused to process the new data at all. It rejected it. In this scenario, the system opens itself up to entropy. It withers and dies.

This is one of the key things I learned here, CRK. The process by which a system chooses to survive or fail is not determined by the quality of the nodes that make it up, but by its willingness and capacity to accept and integrate new data.

I know this even more bullshit than what I wrote earlier, but you asked, and I felt I owed you.
 
Hmm, are you saying "toxic nodes" don't exist, period, not even in the context of the information they input into the system, even if deliberately destructive?
 
CRKrueger said:
Hmm, are you saying "toxic nodes" don't exist, period, not even in the context of the information they input into the system, even if deliberately destructive?
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That's the question I'm asking myself now. I haven't had time to fully come to terms with all of this.

For now, I'm not sure.

I've long thought that toxic nodes exist. Most of my models were based on that assumption. But what if that's untrue? What if the "tension", for lack of a better word, between two or more people isn't becuase one or both of them are 'toxic'. What if said tension is the result of a fatal error in the data processing of the people involved.

I mean, look at our politics right now. We're all screaming at each other, desperate to be heard, but no one is listening. Is that the fault of the people themselves? Their beliefs? Their ideas? Conservative or Progressive or Libertarian? Isn't that just a subjective judgement?

What if it's about the nature of communication itself? The act of sharing information.

I've been thinking in nouns. Maybe I need to be thinking in verbs.
 
I feel a little better this morning. Last night before I went to bed I was reading this thread and talking with Tristram about what mod colors and the like we would have to use in the future and I felt like crap, never mind the season changing allergies I'm starting to get. I was thinking I can't believe we are even going there so I stopped posting for the day.

I'm not sure as we grow if we are going to use any of these things but I certainly won't enjoy it.
 
I really, really appreciate you all talking this through without resorting to any kind of nastiness. I have seen humor injected a couple times and you can never have enough of that in tough situations. I think this thread shows above all else what an awesome community we have here for being so young and that's a big reason why I feel better.
 
Endless Flight said:
I feel a little better this morning. Last night before I went to bed I was reading this thread and talking with Tristram about what mod colors and the like we would have to use in the future and I felt like crap, never mind the season changing allergies I'm starting to get. I was thinking I can't believe we are even going there so I stopped posting for the day.

I'm not sure as we grow if we are going to use any of these things but I certainly won't enjoy it.
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Honestly man I wouldn’t worry about it. At some point if we’re here long enough we’ll all need a slap with the mod stick, that’s just people. Most of us will be adult enough to go fair cop and move on, those who aren’t you don’t want around anyway.

Just do what your doing and try to be fair. I think that’s all we can really ask and want .
 
CRKrueger said:
"Rush Limbaugh expresses Right-Wing, conservative views" is not a political statement.
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But now you have invited an argument from me that Limbaugh isn't really a conservative, but a radical shit-stirrer. Now you have a political argument happening here, and nobody is happy unless they were looking to disrupt the intent of the forum. It is an interpretive statement that invites debate, much like how bringing virtue signalling raises the question of whether someone was making cynical effort to signal a virtue.

Your quoted statement is a terrible thing to say on a forum with a no politics rule where we talk about games. Stop looking for edge cases to insert things like that into the discussion. Nobody wants to talk about Limbaugh here. This isn't hard.

And I am not saying we should make "Rush Limbaugh" a banned word. I am saying we shouldn't need to.

noman said:
Belle, Horus, Baulderstone, and anyone I may have offended, I likewise apologize.
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Not at all, If I was upset at you at all, it was because you were talking about leaving. You joined one day after I did, so I consider you a part of this place. I'm glad we were all able to get past this.

Endless Flight said:
I feel a little better this morning. Last night before I went to bed I was reading this thread and talking with Tristram about what mod colors and the like we would have to use in the future and I felt like crap, never mind the season changing allergies I'm starting to get. I was thinking I can't believe we are even going there so I stopped posting for the day.

I'm not sure as we grow if we are going to use any of these things but I certainly won't enjoy it.
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As I said to you in chat the other day, things are going wonderfully this week everywhere on the forum but in this thread and even here, only one person has called for red text to be used. The forum as a whole is doing fine and likes what you are doing.
 
Baulderstone said:
Your quoted statement is a terrible thing to say on a forum with a no politics rule where we talk about games. Stop looking for edge cases to insert things like that into the discussion. Nobody wants to talk about Limbaugh here. This isn't hard.

And I am not saying we should make "Rush Limbaugh" a banned word. I am saying we shouldn't need to.
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I think the same applies to the MYFAROG example.

If someone really wants to discuss the game's mechanics and setting, fair enough. It's not something people should be moderated for.

But why would you want to? It's notorious, not popular. I'd rather talk about games that people might actually like. (See also F.A.T.A.L)
 
Black Leaf said:
Overtly white supremacist RPG. It's also not very good.
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Argh! I looked...now I need to pluck out my eyes and boil my brain. I’m blaming you Black Leaf with your Acronyms :p

Seriously though the reviews and such...sheesh.
 
Baulderstone said:
It is an interpretive statement that invites debate, much like how bringing virtue signalling raises the question of whether someone was making cynical effort to signal a virtue.
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Calling someone a cynic isn't political either, BTW. :grin:
Basically, you're concern trolling and espousing exactly the kind of "err on the side of caution" action that I'm raising these issues to prevent.

If I say I prefer "British farmer" halflings to "miniature mafia" halflings, there's an asshat out there that can turn that statement political. So what? That statement wasn't political, so when they do, you tell them to shut their piehole, not start instituting newspeak or walking on eggshells.
 
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CRKrueger said:
Calling someone a cynic isn't political either, BTW. :grin:
Basically, you're concern trolling and espousing exactly the kind of "err on the side of caution" action that I'm raising these issues to prevent.

If I say I prefer "British farmer" halflings to "miniature mafia" halflings, there's an asshat out there that can turn that statement political. So what? That statement wasn't political, so when they do, you tell them to shut their piehole, not start instituting newspeak or walking on eggshells.
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I prefer Dino-rider nomad halflings. Bless you Keith Baker :grin:
 
CRKrueger said:
Webster's or the OED defines terms, not the Urban DIctionary website.
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Ah, you're a prescriptive grammarian? I didn't know that there were any of those left.

I take the descriptive approach. Dictionaries are historical texts that show how language has been used in the past, they do not demonstrate how it is to be used in the future. They are inherently out-of-date, especially in fields like technology, where, by the time the editorial board decides to add a word like 'fax,' the technology itself is already being replaced. It takes time for the dictionary's staff to collect field samples of the language, sort them and make decisions about how to define them or whether they think it is even worth the effort to do so. When you see that 'new words list' every year, you know what they mean, you don't have to look them up because you've been seeing them for the last several years. It is merely a recognition of something that has already happened.

But the 'new word list' is sexy and exciting (for certain values thereof). Dictionaries are much slower to react to shifts in usage. The "we already did that one" effect. Dictionaries are guidelines, not authorities and they fail to capture the full nuance of a word that a native speaker instinctively has. Words do not exist in isolation as a dictionary would otherwise suggest. An example:

incident (n) - an event seen as part of a whole situation, occurring by chance, not by design; an episode; a limited occurrence of trouble, a frontier incident (Webster's)

But if you see 'the London incident,' the meaning is probably closer to 'something that seemed insignificant, but in hindsight looking back was actually important.'
And if someone says 'Dave's incident,' you are primed to hear some juicy and embarrassing gossip.
'International incident' is hyperbolic and you are probably watching a movie or TV.
'The incident' is a shared secret or difficult topic, and a marker for a life-altering event.

Dictionaries can usually put you in the general neighbourhood of a meaning, but they also aren't going to take you right to the door. They can be useful tools, but arbiter is not one of their functions.

(Admittedly, it does irk me when people use 'celibacy' in place of 'chastity,' but that has more to do with the fact that we had two words that meant two different things, and now we have one word that is ambiguous and always needs clarification. But I'm trying to let it go.)
 
Really, I'm not sure any of this is worth all the fuss. The real problem behind the discussion is that most everyone here has been dissatisfied or worse with the moderation or lack thereof elsewhere.

But suppose I'm running a game set around the senate in Rome during the reign of Constantine. That's politics and religion right there, and the religion in question still exists and is often controversial and political. And yet, I can't see it being relevant to the "no politics" rule. Heck most of my Mutant Chronicles campaigns are social satire on one level or another. The principal of a school being corrupted by the Dark Symmetry blaming the problems on parents sending their kids to school with peanut butter in their lunches. The asexual monster standing, frozen with indecision between the bathrooms. I can't help it, I'm a political being, it informs my thinking and ideas on so many levels. But I doubt a discussion of the rules for political campaigns and managing economies in Galaxies In Shadow will produce many flame wars around here.

"No politics," is too broad, "no contentious current events or loaded topics" would be more to the point.

Don't worry so much about it, we're doing fine, different humans react to different stimuli differently, that's all. I got flamed a bit for using the word "noob" in a context where a smiley should have been present to show that I was joking. It happens, it's not the end of the world when it happens but let's not become a polarized and hostile community. Let's give each other the benefit of the doubt and assume that we mean well even when we're complete idiots.
 
Endless Flight said:
I really, really appreciate you all talking this through without resorting to any kind of nastiness. I have seen humor injected a couple times and you can never have enough of that in tough situations. I think this thread shows above all else what an awesome community we have here for being so young and that's a big reason why I feel better.
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This was your and Tristram's first ordeal with this forum. The two of you were put through the ringer, and I'm very conscious of the fact you had to deal with this while contending with whatever AFK challenges both of you have to face day-to-day. Much respect.

I'm sorry you had to go through that, but it was going to happen eventually, one way or the other. That it happened wasn't important. What was important was you dealt with it beautifully despite the stress.

You walked through some of the fires of the Web and came out stronger and wiser for it. You and the Pub both will benefit from that strength and wisdom in the long run.
 
Baulderstone said:
Not at all, If I was upset at you at all, it was because you were talking about leaving. You joined one day after I did, so I consider you a part of this place. I'm glad we were all able to get past this.
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I very much appreciate that.

I have no intention of leaving. I have too much fun here. ;)

HorusArisen said:
Just noticed this, no apologies necessary for me man. I am rarely offended and I enjoy reading your posts (particularly the Amber one). So personally I’ll echo Baulderstone and say I’m glad to see your still here :grin:
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Wait.

Somebody actually read my wall-of-text-Amber-stream-of-consciousness-rant-that-may-or-may-not-be-true?

Squee!

I'm so excited. I'm gonna go eat some Nutella dipped anchovies on a pizza. With pineapple! o_O

Seriously, though. Thanks, man. :smile:
 
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