How badly has D&D been mismanaged?

[EmperorNorton]

Or MAYBE you need to find yourself a new watering hole there, pardner... *click*

Nah, if people legit think people in their 40s are "young" they need to just realize that they are in fact just old.

 

[sharps54]

The children are our future…

 

[robertsconley]

That's a little vague for me (I'm not clever enough to grok that).

Tabletop Roleplaying campaigns as a leisure activity demand more of their participants. Compared to other forms of mass entertainment, RPGs are never going to be as popular. What it can be is self-sustaining in its own right. It is at this moment, thanks to its early adaptation to the technological changes that are now wrecking traditional publishing and entertainment.

I don't follow them (for obvious reasons). What's the critical role thing. I mean, I figure if young attractive people with good scriptwriters did **anything**, then they'd get an audience. Does it make a difference that it's roleplaying?

Yes.

The more detailed answer is that it showed, as opposed to telling people why playing tabletop roleplaying campaigns is exciting. Showing, not telling, was a crucial nut to crack in order to keep the hobby and industry going. Until Critical Role and the other early streamers, nobody was able to figure out how to do that effectively for tabletop RPGs.

Small steps.

I'd like more people playing. More mainstream (No truck with the snobbery of wanting it to stay underground or exclusive). We've been at this for 50 years and we haven't skipped out of the stereotype.

Actually, we have "skipped out of the stereotype". Tabletop RPGs are not any more or less distinctive on the "underground" or "weirdness" scale than dozens of other niches. If anything, because of D&D's importance to the early development of video games, culturally, the world has grown to appreciate tabletop roleplaying.

Several things have made the years since 2010 the 2nd golden age for RPGs.

• the successful streaming of actual play during a RPG campaign. Allow people to see how fun RPGs can be without having to participate.
• maturing VTT software that complemented instead of supplanting pen & paper RPG campaigns. Thus allowing geographically separate groups to play together.
• the brand leader, D&D, nailing the balance between complexity and playability with 5th edition
• open content under open licenses for RPGs, which expanded the avenues through which first-time authors can publish in the hobby.
• The radical drop in the capital costs of publishing as a result of digital technology and print-on-demand.
• The success of Euro-games in creating a pen & paper niche versus computer gaming.
• The publication of serious academic works on RPG history.
• Crownfunding as an alternative for raising capital and/or a reliable pre-order.

Each of these factors has pushed the RPG hobby and industry from something marginal to something that will continue to be self-sustaining.

However, these didn't allow the hobby and industry to become as popular as board games, computer gaming, movies, books, etc. Participating in a tabletop RPG campaign demands more time than the above. Along with requiring the coordination of the schedules of two or more individuals. These, along with other factors, put a ceiling on how much RPGs can compete with these other forms of leisure.

Finally, the RPG companies face a trap in that, if they go multi-media, they will quickly find that every dollar of capital and labor will earn more making board games, books, movies, etc., due to the larger potential audience these forms of entertainment have. Good examples of this in action are the revenues of Baldur's Gate 3 versus that of D&D 5e itself. The card game Munchkin versus that of GURPS or TFT at Steve Jackson Games. A non-gaming example is Marvel Comics versus Marvel Studios.

As a result, attempts by an RPG company to earn more revenue by expanding their IP outside of RPGs will eventually result in them ceasing to be an RPG company. Steve Jackson Games still makes RPGs only because its sole owner, Steve Jackson is still passionate about keeping his RPGs in print. And right now he is far more passionate about keeping TFT in print than GURPS. But even he realizes that Munchkin is what has to get the lion's share of the company resources.

However, RPGs are self-sustaining because of the changes caused by digital technology. We don't have to worry about other forms of entertainment. The hobby and industry can thrive by focusing on making the best RPG material and that will be more than enough. More than enough profits and numbers to fuel an expanding network of materials and the hobbyists to play them.

 

[robb]

But it's super niche where I am.

In Ireland it is certainly way more popular than the previous high point of the late 80s/v early 90s.
My daughter's primary school had a regular game 6 years ago (nothing to do with me) and lots
of non-gamer parents of older kids who are acquaintances of mine bring it up with me all the
time that their kids are playing (always dnd). The dnd discord for Dublin has new people joining literally
daily looking for games, the vast majority have not played before.
Edit: TBH it makes me feel a bit weird to have all these peers of mine who I feel would have ostracised me
for mentioning rpgs/games when we were young are now "oh yeah my son /daughter is playing D&D,
it's great/interesting".
There are new Cons in Ireland formed by this new wave that have very little to do with the older Cons.
(BTW I am going to Q-Con 30th in a couple of weeks!)

There are IMO limits to the potential for rpgs to be non-niche.
RPGs are hard compared to many hobbies/pastimes. They take lots of time. Organisation. Reading. etc.
This is partially why CR can appeal to a wider range of people. You don't have to do all that
stuff to just passively watch when it suits you.

 

[EmperorNorton]

There are IMO limits to the potential for rpgs to be non-niche.
RPGs are hard compared to many hobbies/pastimes. They take lots of time. Organisation. Reading. etc.

Yeah, it is always going to max out at the popularity of other hobbies that require a bit more dedication than just passively enjoying it alone.

Things like joining a rec basketball league and stuff like that. Yeah, it's a normal thing that some people do, but it is still not going to be the majority of people just because it takes a lot of time commitment.

Even as someone who is into RPGs, there is a reason that I spend more time playing video games and reading books.

 

[TJS]

My preference for minis these days is somewhat ecletic:

- I like some kind of visual representation.
- I prefer zones for movement and melee - I can't stand routine measuring or counting of squares.
- I don't want completely abstract however, because mini's are good for things like cover.
- I don't want rules to be entirely based in things like abstract zones, because sometimes the exact range of a fireball realy matters (often for things like ambushes) and I want the rules to be able to settle what it actually is.

 

[Agemegos]

Nah, if people legit think people in their 40s are "young" they need to just realize that they are in fact just old.

Whether you express it by saying that Millennials are young or that Boomers are old, I think the truth remains that Critical Role succeeded better with a cast of Millennials who look like this

and have voice-acting skills, than it would have done with a cast of Boomers who look like me and can't even get their own accents right.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Whether you express it by saying that Millennials are young or that Boomers are old, I think the truth remains that Critical Role succeeded better with a cast of Millennials who look like this

and have voice-acting skills, than it would have done with a cast of Boomers who look like me and can't even get their own accents right.

I mean, I don't disagree, notice I didn't disagree about attractive. And they are also professionals (actors and voice actors) which I'm sure helps. (I don't think age has much to do with it at all. Like, imagine if it was George Clooney instead of Matt Mercer.)

My only disagreement is calling them young. It's a very specific disagreement. Probably because its kind of annoying being in your 40s and have grown kids and for people to still treat you like you don't have much life experience.

 

[Toadmaster]

Is it though?

I personally don't feel like it is at all. Maybe among older people, but a lot of the people I know in their 20s/30s have either played RPGs or are interested in playing RPGs. That was not the case back in the 80s or 90s.

Agree, I feel like RPGs are much more mainstream than in the 80s and 90s. Many talk about seeing RPGs in Walden Books in the 80s like that is no longer the case. Walden may be gone, but every Barnes and Noble I've been in still has a decent size area for RPGs and usually more than just D&D. Many hobby shops have an area for RPGs and Warhammer, and not just game shops.
Something that didn't even exist in the 80s and 90s, the internet is full of blogs, and fansites, Youtube has a ton of RPG content.

We are so far past the days of having to look for RPG stuff in the dark corners of the world.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Agree, I feel like RPGs are much more mainstream than in the 80s and 90s. Many talk about seeing RPGs in Walden Books in the 80s like that is no longer the case. Walden may be gone, but every Barnes and Noble I've been in still has a decent size area for RPGs and usually more than just D&D. Many hobby shops have an area for RPGs and Warhammer, and not just game shops.
Something that didn't even exist in the 80s and 90s, the internet is full of blogs, and fansites, Youtube has a ton of RPG content.

We are so far past the days of having to look for RPG stuff in the dark corners of the world.

Also, honestly I don't remember ever seeing anything but D&D in Walden Books (which was in fact where I got my first set of PHB/DMG/MM back in the day).

Barnes and Noble carries a good many more games. Hell, you can drop into your local Target and get the D&D Starter Set or Essentials Kit.

 

[TristramEvans]

I got WEG Star Wars, Chill, DC Heroes, Shadowrun, MERP, and, later on, most White Wolf games from Waldenbooks in the 90s.

Does Waldenbooks still exist? These days the only chain bookstore in my area is Indigo books (which is like the Canadian version of Borders), and last time I was in there the only roleplaying books they had were 5e and Pathfinder.

 

[Endless Flight]

I miss Waldenbooks. I loved that store.

 

[EmperorNorton]

Waldenbooks is dead. Was bought by Borders, and then Borders went bankrupt.

B&N is pretty much the only big chain store in my area. I think Books-a-Million still technically exists as a company, but there hasn't been one in Athens, GA in years (fun fact, the Bubba Sparxxx music video for Ugly was partially filmed in the Walmart parking lot that was shared with the Books-a-Million I used to go to you can see it at 2:33 in here.)

 

[T. Foster]

I got WEG Star Wars, Chill, DC Heroes, Shadowrun, MERP, and, later on, most White Wolf games from Waldenbooks in the 90s.

Does Waldenbooks still exist? These days the only chain bookstore in my area is Indigo books (which is like the Canadian version of Borders), and last time I was in there the only roleplaying books they had were 5e and Pathfinder.

Nope. It got bought out by Borders in the 90s and all of its remaining stores closed down when Borders went bankrupt in 2011. The other 80s mall staple bookstore, B. Dalton, is also gone after getting bought out by Barnes & Noble (though apparently there’s actually one B. Dalton-branded store still in existence in Florida).

 

[TristramEvans]

*spills beer to my fallen homies*

 

[TJS]

The only thing I know about Waldenbooks is that is appeared in a lot of Dragon Magazine adds back in the day.

 

[T. Foster]

Also, honestly I don't remember ever seeing anything but D&D in Walden Books (which was in fact where I got my first set of PHB/DMG/MM back in the day).

Barnes and Noble carries a good many more games. Hell, you can drop into your local Target and get the D&D Starter Set or Essentials Kit.

D&D was the first rpg carried in mall bookstores because of TSR’s deal with Random House. A few other publishers followed later - Mayfair and I.C.E. for sure because I distinctly remember seeing RoleAids and MERP books alongside the D&D stuff, but probably some others as well (they also carried Fantasy Wargaming by Bruce Galloway because it was published by a regular book publisher (Doubleday?) rather than a game company).

 

[Vargold]

Is it though?

I personally don't feel like it is at all. Maybe among older people, but a lot of the people I know in their 20s/30s have either played RPGs or are interested in playing RPGs. That was not the case back in the 80s or 90s.

Bingo. Earlier this week I (age 54) went in for a neurology appointment (due to my peripheral neuropathy), and the young female DNP who did the examination noticed my Bag of Holding satchel and started telling me about her D&D campaign.

 

[Vargold]

I felt seen, seen at last.

 

[T. Foster]

In the early-mid 80s D&D was VERY popular among kids but not really among adults, and most of the adults that did play in that area seemingly had started in the 70s (and, although I was mostly oblivious at the time, realize now that they resented how their hobby had become so kiddified, which is why they dismissively called us “munchkins”). In the 90s-00s people were still playing, both the kids from the 80s who stuck with it as adults and new people who picked it up for the first time (a smaller cohort than the 80s boom but still pretty sizable) but they didn’t have much public visibility and tended to keep to themselves or other known gamers, at least in part because in that era D&D had a very negative mainstream reputation as a hobby exclusively for mega-nerds and dorky losers.

That’s what has really changed within the last dozen years - that playing D&D is now something that both kids and adults (at least young adults in their 20s & 30s) are very open about - wearing D&D themed t-shirts and buying D&D toys and tchotchkes and so forth. In “my era” (young adult in the 90s) that’s something you would almost never see outside of a gaming con, because wearing a D&D shirt in mixed company was tantamount to saying “I’m an adult virgin who lives with my parents.” The stigma was real in those days, and now seems to have completely evaporated.

 

[Endless Flight]

I worked at Border’s in 2000, right around the time when 3e was coming out. I remember a couple of the guys there talking about a d20 Star Wars game coming out behind the service desk and I put a special order in on it. I probably got a copy before most people did.

 

[carpocratian]

I used to be a fan of the Mage Knight miniature wargame. Even when I stopped playing and got rid of it I kept its very useful and durable measuring tape. So while at times I will use a gridded setup I am not beholden to it. And even when I do, I will bust out MK measuring tape to measure weird diagonal or curved moves.

Though I have always minimized the use of minis, there are some occasions when I bring them out. After ending a 5-year 5E campaign late last year, and ultimately deciding that I never want to GM 5E again, I sat down and really thought about what other things I want to stick to in future campaigns (as opposed to convention one-shots). One of those decisions was to move to the use of measuring tapes when doing things that involved props or minis.

 

[Bunch]

D&D is super mainstream where I am. The single largest middle school club is Dungeons and Dragons. I believe it is 60 students for this year requiring 3 classrooms to host it after school.
When I tell parents here I know about D&D they oh and ah because this is new to them and they feel left out. It's very reminiscent to when the HR person at the tech company said "It's so weird. All my life the uncool people played D&D and now the cool people in the company all play D&D!"
I don't think we're anywhere near as niche as we were. I would expect if I mention D&D to anyone under 30 these days they wouldn't ask "What's that?!?" With a blank stare. It would just be a question of if they have played, currently played or know a friend who plays but they don't.

 

[carpocratian]

As far as the bookstore stuff goes, I worked at Borders during its height in the 90s. It went downhill after buying Waldenbooks, mainly because the Walden executives who got promoted into leadership positions at Borders brought a mall-bookstore mentality with them, and wanted to emulate B&N's way of doing business. The original founders of Borders were passing things down to the next generation of family members at the same time, which didn't help things. That change in mentality nullified the things that made Borders different from B&N, which is a big part of what led to their downfall. There was also the Amazon issue, but the downward slope was happening before Amazon really grabbed the biggest part of the market.

Books-A-Million still exists, but the few locations I have been in recently look like mall versions of B&N, with a lot of non-book items and a drastically cut down selection of periodicals and certain genre sections, like horror. There is no reason for me to go in them anymore, since they are basically just a small version of B&N, without the things that set them apart from it.

Interestingly enough, the newish British CEO of B&N is pushing for them to start emulating the things that made Borders successful, without admitting that's what they are doing.

 

[chuckdee]

Other people seem to have grokked it. And no, I don't think I'm that influential that I'm forcing people to dislike it. WotC is an easy target. But hey, whatever, start an argument about the way it's presented. Piss off.

Same to you- nah not the same, go Fuck off. And just because no one said it, doesn't mean no one thought it.

 

[T. Foster]

I loved Borders in the 80s and early 90s, and agree that by the 21st century they had become essentially indistinguishable from Barnes & Noble, which was disappointing.

 

[chuckdee]

Waldenbooks is dead. Was bought by Borders, and then Borders went bankrupt.

B&N is pretty much the only big chain store in my area. I think Books-a-Million still technically exists as a company, but there hasn't been one in Athens, GA in years (fun fact, the Bubba Sparxxx music video for Ugly was partially filmed in the Walmart parking lot that was shared with the Books-a-Million I used to go to you can see it at 2:33 in here.)

Yeah, Books A Million limps on, but its on its last legs. Arguably, so is B&N. I miss book stores in malls- gave me places to go while I was there.

 

[lategamer]

Bruh, Marisha Ray is the only one of those 5 younger than 40, and is still in her mid 30s, and Liam O'Brien and Sam Riegel are in their late 40s.

Young people.

If you think those are "young people", then your perspective is incredibly distorted.

No. It means I’m older. Duh. And even I don’t want to be called Old.

 

[AsenRG]

My only disagreement is calling them young. It's a very specific disagreement. Probably because its kind of annoying being in your 40s and have grown kids and for people to still treat you like you don't have much life experience.

Ditto, fellow 40ies Pubber!

In the early-mid 80s D&D was VERY popular among kids but not really among adults, and most of the adults that did play in that area seemingly had started in the 70s (and, although I was mostly oblivious at the time, realize now that they resented how their hobby had become so kiddified, which is why they dismissively called us “munchkins”). In the 90s-00s people were still playing, both the kids from the 80s who stuck with it as adults and new people who picked it up for the first time (a smaller cohort than the 80s boom but still pretty sizable) but they didn’t have much public visibility and tended to keep to themselves or other known gamers, at least in part because in that era D&D had a very negative mainstream reputation as a hobby exclusively for mega-nerds and dorky losers.

That’s what has really changed within the last dozen years - that playing D&D is now something that both kids and adults (at least young adults in their 20s & 30s) are very open about - wearing D&D themed t-shirts and buying D&D toys and tchotchkes and so forth. In “my era” (young adult in the 90s) that’s something you would almost never see outside of a gaming con, because wearing a D&D shirt in mixed company was tantamount to saying “I’m an adult virgin who lives with my parents.” The stigma was real in those days, and now seems to have completely evaporated.

Dude, people that were ~10 in the early-mid 80ies are older than me, and people who were ~10 in the 90ies are now roughly my age, and EmperorNorton 's age as well IIRC...
And no, that's not "young ones".


So basically, the players from the 80ies and 90ies booms have grown up and now a significant part of the population. Hence, a significant part of the population has played RPGs. Boom, societal normalisation occurring surreptitiously!

Young people.

The Pub is the only place where I can believe that almost everyone considers me young, lately!

No. It means I’m older. Duh. And even I don’t want to be called Old.

How about "well-ripened"?

Also, the wife recently mentioned that "Asen is playing to be older than he is because he habitually plays an Old Master impression". I almost keeled over laughing, because it's simply true!
In my defense, it's a role I wouldn't need to change with the years, so it's got its advantages!

 

[lategamer]

Edit: TBH it makes me feel a bit weird to have all these peers of mine who I feel would have ostracised me for mentioning rpgs/games when we were young are now "oh yeah my son /daughter is playing D&D, it's great/interesting".

Yes, that would grind my gears. Luckily I moved a thousand miles away.

There are new Cons in Ireland formed by this new wave that have very little to do with the older Cons.

I’ve no visibility of cons in Ireland. I only know the old names and don’t even know if they’re still going.

(BTW I am going to Q-Con 30th in a couple of weeks!)

Knowing my involvement in the founding (I was Slayers first con director, rewrote the club constitution to create QCOn and ran three cons), you’re a bloody savage for mentioning the age of it. #soOld.

There are IMO limits to the potential for rpgs to be non-niche.
RPGs are hard compared to many hobbies/pastimes. They take lots of time. Organisation. Reading. etc.
This is partially why CR can appeal to a wider range of people. You don't have to do all that
stuff to just passively watch when it suits you.

Maybe it’s like sports. I’d rather do sports than watch sports. And watching scripted sports is even less interesting. But then I know I’m an aged freak.

I want better behaviour from our biggest game. Better games. Better movies. More content. I’ve heard no reasons why the IP couldn’t be bigger than any other franchise other than harking back to it being RPGs. Pokemon managed. Marvel broke out of just being comics.

I rewatched D&D:HAT. Goodness it’s not great (Pine is the only one who gets the gags and he needs a better director to get him to not be wooden)

Ok. TTRPGs are more popular than every but what’s possible for you or me in TTRPGs is not the same as what’s possible for WotC.

I don’t really relish the meta of the cartoon (fighter! Barbarian!) but there is a meta around a fantasy movie that still refers to the gaming aspect.

 

[lategamer]

I mean, I don't disagree, notice I didn't disagree about attractive. And they are also professionals (actors and voice actors) which I'm sure helps. (I don't think age has much to do with it at all. Like, imagine if it was George Clooney instead of Matt Mercer.)

Clooney is 63. Christ that lad has good genes.

My only disagreement is calling them young. It's a very specific disagreement. Probably because its kind of annoying being in your 40s and have grown kids and for people to still treat you like you don't have much life experience.

Dude. You are young. I hate to get all “Sunscreen” on you but you are young and we are envious

Nothing to do with your life experience. All to do with how long we think we might have left (and regret over games we have not yet played)

 

[AsenRG]

I don’t really relish the meta of the cartoon (fighter! Barbarian!) but there is a meta around a fantasy movie that still refers to the gaming aspect.

A Barbarian and a Bard, what's there to dislike?!?

Although for a D&D movie, a Druid&Duskblade would have been better, the above choice is best for a B&B movie!

 

[lategamer]

Same to you- nah not the same, go Fuck off. And just because no one said it, doesn't mean no one thought it.

I have zero interest in a slagging match.

I’m not interested in you attacking the question. So go and cool off.

 

[AsenRG]

Dude. You are young. I hate to get all “Sunscreen” on you but you are young and we are envious

No, he's not. He's middle-aged, and so am I.

Nothing to do with your life experience. All to do with how long we think we might have left (and regret over games we have not yet played)

That's a self-defeating approach IMO.

Don't regret, just play!

I have zero interest in a slagging match.

I'm not interested in you attacking the question. So go and cool off.

And you've been aggravating this whole thread, so maybe take some of your own advice, and go lose some of that steam.

 

[lategamer]

It's very reminiscent to when the HR person at the tech company said "It's so weird. All my life the uncool people played D&D and now the cool people in the company all play D&D!

Ok that confirms it. You’re in some weird mirror universe and I need to figure out how to get there.

 

[AsenRG]

Yeah, Books A Million limps on, but its on its last legs. Arguably, so is B&N. I miss book stores in malls- gave me places to go while I was there.

...we still have book stores in the malls.

 

[lategamer]

No, he's not. He's middle-aged, and so am

I certainly hope that the Middle-Aged are much later than forties.

And you've been aggravating this whole thread, so maybe take some of your own advice, and go lose some of that steam.

I apologise. Though it’s not like a leopard can change its spots and no-one is forced to engage and no-one is expected to change their minds.

Anyway. Fair point. Unwatching this thread.

 

[Toadmaster]

: middle-aged people : people between the age of about 40 and the age of about 60


"The middle-aged." Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/the middle-aged. Accessed 11 May. 2024.

 

[carpocratian]

I want better behaviour from our biggest game. Better games. Better movies. More content. I’ve heard no reasons why the IP couldn’t be bigger than any other franchise other than harking back to it being RPGs. Pokemon managed. Marvel broke out of just being comics.

Again, it gets back to a consistent set of identifiable characters in a stable setting. Marvel already had those things, along with decades of storylines. It was already based in fiction, stories, a cast of characters, etc. In that regard, books and comics and TV shows and movies all have a lot in common with each other. D&D doesn't have any of that. They might have, if they had focused on a particular set of characters and a primary setting and kept the focus on it, like they did with their novels (for a while). If they had gone all-in on that, though, any real success would have been more because of the strength of the books they were publishing, or the movies they were making, or the TV series they came up with, which wouldn't need to be dependent on any rpg brand, particularly one as generic as "Dungeons and Dragons." "Forgotten Realms" is what gained some popularity as a book series, not "Dungeons and Dragons." "Forgotten Realms" could easily have just been a regular fantasy series, without any ties to the game. It brought some money in to the parent company, but they may have done better in the long run just launching a separate publishing arm for fantasy books that weren't hobbled by any need to tie into the game property.

As someone else mentioned, Steve Jackson Games pretty much went that route, becoming a board game company that isn't really tied to its rpg arm, which is more of a side-business now. "Munchkin" wouldn't benefit from being tied into GURPS, and GURPS itself isn't really the type of marketable property that translates well on its own into other media. TSR could have become a fiction publisher that also had an rpg product on the side, but there is no reason to expect that the fiction side of things would benefit in the long run from being tied to the rpg.

Pokemon had to zero in on a regular cast of characters in a stable setting to make manga and comics and TV shows work. It is a pretty simple concept with a repeating general theme, though, so they could do that without a lot of difficulty. There is a reason we haven't seen something similar work well with "Magic the Gathering." Like D&D, it is a big collection of settings and characters, without enough focus or originality devoted to any one setting to make it work as a potentially strong spinoff into books, comics, TV shows, movies, etc.

In the end, I have never really seen a compelling argument for why D&D as a brand would strengthen any fiction property in another media. Name recognition alone doesn't mean that much.

 

[AsenRG]

: middle-aged people : people between the age of about 40 and the age of about 60


"The middle-aged." Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary, Merriam-Webster, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/the middle-aged. Accessed 11 May. 2024.

Yeah, that's always been my understanding as well.

So most of CR are also middle-aged. They're certainly not "young", just "younger than lategamer (and possibly a few other RPGPubbers)".

In the end, I have never really seen a compelling argument for why D&D as a brand would strengthen any fiction property in another media. Name recognition alone doesn't mean that much.

Yeah, the opinions on that could certainly differ.