Mod+ How does religion make sense in a D&D-like setting?

[Fenris-77]

Epicurean Trilemma.

That's a killer band name.

 

[Fenris-77]

Of course it was. Because there were no such gods.

Yeah, lets not go there shall we? Someone might very reasonably believe the exact same thing about more modern religions and that's definitely a no go topic on the Pub, so we might as well stay consistent and avoid the historical relativism. Let's stick with the idea that during the Roman period it was a given for most people that their gods existed (as is the case with any time period).

 

[T. Foster]

In the classic/Gygax D&D cosmology the only true atheists are the liches and Demi-liches. Everyone else’s soul goes to one of the alignment-coded outer planes at death either to dwell there eternally in rest/torment or to be reincarnated and do it all over again (even the other undead - ghosts, vampires, mummies, etc - spend some time in the lower planes before being sent back to the mortal realm as servants of the nether-powers and it’s at least implicit that if their undead form is destroyed they’ll return there).

Only liches deny the gods access to their “soul juice” and remain defiantly as independent free agents, sustaining their vitality by destroying the souls of others (neutral evil larvae). And in time, as their physical bodies deteriorate, they become Demi-liches and spend their time roaming “strange planes unknown to even the wisest of sages.”

They are the ultimate rebels against the tyranny of the gods and the laws of the universe that say that mortal souls power the gods and require everyone to pick a side.

 

[Chris Brady]

A good bit of ancient “atheism” was more “apatheism”: the gods don’t actually care about us, so I don’t care about them. That was a relatively common view among several Greco-Roman schools of philosophy, and famously exemplified in the Epicurean trilemma.

I think the term is more 'Agnosticism', or maybe more 'I don't mess with The Gods, maybe They won't mess with me.' as a sort of retaliatory belief.

 

[Self Saboteur]

I think the term is more 'Agnosticism', or maybe more 'I don't mess with The Gods, maybe They won't mess with me.' as a sort of retaliatory belief.

Can also mean its unknowable if there are gods or not.

 

[LikelyArrow]

Yeah, lets not go there shall we? Someone might very reasonably believe the exact same thing about more modern religions and that's definitely a no go topic on the Pub, so we might as well stay consistent and avoid the historical relativism. Let's stick with the idea that during the Roman period it was a given for most people that their gods existed (as is the case with any time period).

When discussing religions, especially in a context like this where we can decide what's true by fiat, I like to start with the assumption not that the beliefs are true but that they're broadly consistent with the world as the believers experienced it, if only because our beliefs color our experiences.

 

[LikelyArrow]

I think the term is more 'Agnosticism', or maybe more 'I don't mess with The Gods, maybe They won't mess with me.' as a sort of retaliatory belief.

Can also mean its unknowable if there are gods or not.

IIRC the term "agnosticism" was coined in the 19th century by Thomas Henry Huxley (brother to Aldous Huxley of Brave New World fame). It's a notion that I think requires a certain level of philosophical sophistication that only comes around during a civilization's age of reason. I'm not sure how well the idea translate to an experience of the world where the works of the gods are manifest in every harvest, hunt, and storm.

 

[xanther]

Well, until vsomel adventurers come back from an outer-plane trek and tell about the damned/blessed souls they met...

Indeed, that's why in my settings there is some doubt...did you see anyone in the after world you knew? No. Anyone I know? No. How did they seem in those Elysian Fields, happy but distant. Just enough to wonder, is it a Potemkin village, Stepford Wives situation.

It gets even trickier with those places of torment, where at least ala D&D cosmology you go there if you follow a certain alignment, if that is a certainty who in their right mind is of an evil alignment in the setting? How arrogant or deluded do you need to be to believe you can beat that system, and how powerful do you need to be to do so. I assume those of such alignments in a D&D setting figure they will be the tormentors and not the tormented.

This would get me to think in a set up where you go where you worship, atheists may be the sane ones, they decide to opt out, what happens to them: do you just cease, go somewhere else, come back. Is it different than saying "none of the above" to deities or more a blanket no to worshiping any deity.

 

[Rob Necronomicon]

Maybe I'm too traditional in my fantasy games but I can't conceive of a fantasy game without religion. Probably because it would be loosely based on how our world evolved with religion and why it was conceived int he first place. Humans basically looking for answers, explanations and a fear of death.

But from a game's perspective it offers so much in the way of rich history, identity, beliefs and could be used to drive specific peoples forward in their strategic decision making.

I do like the old trope of 'some' religion being corrupt and players fighting against it too - So essentially it is another 'big' antagonist for the players. It can of course be used as a source of conflict and intrigue. I'm not saying that's good in the real world of course but it's good material for gaming!

Then you can dive into the world of cults if you really want to bring out the horror factor.

There just such a myriad of things you can do with it.

 

[Voros]

Worth noting that one of Leiber's criticism of Middle Earth was the absence of religion.

More importantly, Leiber wrote one of the finest fantasy short stories of all time with 'Lean Times in Lankhmar' which is also a model of a sympathetic yet satirical view of the role of religion. Religion is an important part of Lankhmar.

 

[xanther]

Worth noting that one of Leiber's criticism of Middle Earth was the absence of religion.

More importantly, Leiber wrote one of the finest fantasy short stories of all time with 'Lean Times in Lankhmar' which is also a model of a sympathetic yet satirical view of the role of religion. Religion is an important part of Lankhmar.

All hail Issek of the Jug!

 

[Lofgeornost]

Indeed, that's why in my settings there is some doubt...did you see anyone in the after world you knew? No. Anyone I know? No. How did they seem in those Elysian Fields, happy but distant. Just enough to wonder, is it a Potemkin village, Stepford Wives situation.

Well, typically in the literary sources you do. Odysseus and Aeneas do, Gilgamesh does (and wishes he hadn’t) and Dante seems to have met just about everybody who had died recently in Northern Italy, down to the guy who stiffed him for a salami in 1302 before succumbing to dysentery.

 

[CRKrueger]

I would think visible signs of the gods being real would mean religions make more sense in D&D. But I also agree with Paws that for all intents and purposes, people living in prior periods where religion was how you saw the world, to them the presence of God or the gods was evident. So you can extrapolate from real world cultures fine I think. You can also think through the thought experiment of what it means when you have priests of gods wielding cleric spells in the PHB. Though I think sometimes that takes you to weird places

I kind of accept this argument, but only kinda. There's a big difference between a priest and flock praying that someone recovers fully from a stroke and a year later they're fine and a priest laying on hands and the stricken person gets up and dances.

Fantasy priests and clerics perform overt, unsubtle, unscientific, reproducible, MIRACLES.

In the Middle Ages, people might have thought there were Ogres, and some guy might have an old Neanderthal skull or something to "prove" it.
In Greyhawk, the blacksmith of your town picked up the sobriquet "Ogreslayer" when he split the skull of an Ogre that came into town and everyone in town saw it.

These thing are not the same.

Belief is not knowing, that's why they call it belief and not knowledge.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I kind of accept this argument, but only kinda. There's a big difference between a priest and flock praying that someone recovers fully from a stroke and a year later they're fine and a priest laying on hands and the stricken person gets up and dances.

Fantasy priests and clerics perform overt, unsubtle, unscientific, reproducible, MIRACLES.

In the Middle Ages, people might have thought there were Ogres, and some guy might have an old Neanderthal skull or something to "prove" it.
In Greyhawk, the blacksmith of your town picked up the sobriquet "Ogreslayer" when he split the skull of an Ogre that came into town and everyone in town saw it.

These thing are not the same.

Belief is not knowing, that's why they call it belief and not knowledge.

But all this only makes religion make more sense. If the Gods are real and evident, then surely you must follow the teachings of churches and priests dedicated to them? The only thing that makes less sense in a world like this is not being religious

On the argument about past belief. My point wasn't that they are identical. A person believing in witches in the middle ages is not the same as a person in a fantasy world turned to a newt by a witch (because witches in the medieval and early modern era were a product of Christian imagination). Belief in a prior period shaped peoples view of the world, it didn't shape reality itself. But I think a lot people living in the present underestimate the impact that worldviews have on how people see reality

 

[Edgewise]

It gets even trickier with those places of torment, where at least ala D&D cosmology you go there if you follow a certain alignment, if that is a certainty who in their right mind is of an evil alignment in the setting? How arrogant or deluded do you need to be to believe you can beat that system, and how powerful do you need to be to do so. I assume those of such alignments in a D&D setting figure they will be the tormentors and not the tormented.

I've always imagined that the followers of these gods are people so traumatized, full of rage and desperate for revenge that they just don't care anymore, and they will do anything to get a little power in this world in order to inflict their pain on everyone around them. Sort of the school shooters of their setting. They don't have many worshippers because, well, it's kind of insane to worship them. But those who do are readily granted dark powers.

In addition, the Ruinous Powers can just...lie. Even in a high fantasy world, most people don't visit the Outer Planes. There are people in the real world who believe that the Earth is flat! "Are you going to believe those self-righteous liars? They just want to enslave you in this world and the one that follows!"

 

[Chris Brady]

I've always imagined that the followers of these gods are people so traumatized, full of rage and desperate for revenge that they just don't care anymore, and they will do anything to get a little power in this world in order to inflict their pain on everyone around them. Sort of the school shooters of their setting. They don't have many worshippers because, well, it's kind of insane to worship them. But those who do are readily granted dark powers.

In addition, the Ruinous Powers can just...lie. Even in a high fantasy world, most people don't visit the Outer Planes. There are people in the real world who believe that the Earth is flat! "Are you going to believe those self-righteous liars? They just want to enslave you in this world and the one that follows!"

"It's better to rule in hell, than serve in heaven."

 

[LikelyArrow]

I've always imagined that the followers of these gods are people so traumatized, full of rage and desperate for revenge that they just don't care anymore, and they will do anything to get a little power in this world in order to inflict their pain on everyone around them. Sort of the school shooters of their setting. They don't have many worshippers because, well, it's kind of insane to worship them. But those who do are readily granted dark powers.

In addition, the Ruinous Powers can just...lie. Even in a high fantasy world, most people don't visit the Outer Planes. There are people in the real world who believe that the Earth is flat! "Are you going to believe those self-righteous liars? They just want to enslave you in this world and the one that follows!"

This is some thing I think the ACKS setting does much better than D&D: the Lawful religions teach that some time after death you will be reincarnated into a new mortal body, while the Chaotic religions teach that this is just a pretty lie covering up the truth that your soul will perish just like your body did, and so true immortality is to be found in undeath.

 

[robertsconley]

It gets even trickier with those places of torment, where at least ala D&D cosmology you go there if you follow a certain alignment, if that is a certainty who in their right mind is of an evil alignment in the setting?

From GURPS Religion Page 137



In a nutshell no culture in the long run are going to be adherents of a Malthestic religon. Maltheism is for the most part the province of small cults and individuals. Most of which would not be considered well-adjusted or functioning members of the main culture.

In the short run, any situation, no matter how horrific, is possible. But humans throughout history have displayed a consistent ability to say bullshit and, even in the worse case, alter things for the better in this regard, although the process may take decades or centuries to complete.

Now this is not about how other cultures view each other. Malthesism is about how its adherents view their religion and themselves from within their culture.

How arrogant or deluded do you need to be to believe you can beat that system, and how powerful do you need to be to do so. I assume those of such alignments in a D&D setting figure they will be the tormentors and not the tormented.

More than a few will go, "But it is fantasy," but your reaction illustrates the problem of trying to create a setting with a culture that has long (centuries) been practicing a truly Malthesist religion. It is hard to figure out how to roleplay characters from that culture. Their motivations and goals rapidly descend into some horrific "Lord of the Flies" type situation. Leaving a person wondering how this would ever work in the first place.

Again, it is important to note this is not about how one culture interacts with another. For example the Spartans and the Helots (descended from tribes that Sparta conquered). As abhorrent as that situation was, the Spartans did not believe they were following an evil religion, although nearly everybody else in Greece found their ideas and philosophies repellant. Although they were not above accommodating the Spartans to get help with threats external to Greece like the Persians.

 

[Lessa]

Yeah, by formalizing the worship of deities deemed morally evil by the very culture(s) in question, D&D enters such a bizarre territory that doesn't seem to relate any real world culture or religion, AFAIK. At that point you're so deep into "fantasyland" it's even hard to imagine how such society would function.

Edit: ninja'd by robertsconley above.

 

[T. Foster]

In classic (Gygax-style) D&D evil alignment is defined at least in part by a desire to exploit and abuse those less powerful than you - not necessarily as a means to an end but as an end it itself. “The cruelty is the point.” The whole consciously-evil worldview in that cosmology is based on cycles of abuse and exploitation and passing the abuse you receive on down the line. So in that framing an eternity of abuse and torment isn’t so bad as long as they’re able to inflict as much as they receive, so it’s a competition to be as high as possible in the pecking order. There’s at least one example from Gygax canon (Erac’s Cousin) of a powerful evil PC striking a deal with Hell to become a powerful devil after death - not one of the mindless lemures subject to an eternity of torment but a “middle manager” inflicting the torment. It’s likely a lot of the high level evil clerics and wizards have similar arrangements.

Also, while the neutral powers accept the permanent cosmic status quo where the good souls are rewarded and the evil souls are punished, the evil powers don’t. They aren’t content to let those good and neutral souls spend eternity in rest or bliss, they want access to those poor dupe souls to make them the lowest rungs on the abuse ladder, if only they can eliminate their protectors. That’s the great cosmic conflict, and why the nether-powers are always actively scheming.

 

[ribonucleic]

I'll confine myself to quoting C.S. Lewis who observed re theism and atheism:

Please do not think that one of these views was held a long time ago and that the other has gradually taken its place. Wherever there have been thinking men both views turn up.

 

[xanther]

...More than a few will go, "But it is fantasy," but your reaction illustrates the problem of trying to create a setting with a culture that has long (centuries) been practicing a truly Malthesist religion. It is hard to figure out how to roleplay characters from that culture. Their motivations and goals rapidly descend into some horrific "Lord of the Flies" type situation. Leaving a person wondering how this would ever work in the first place.

"Lord of the Flies" is a great example, about one wondering how this could arise as the true life event that was based on bears no resemblance to the story, i.e. the kids did help each other and didn't turn on each other. Now as a larger commentary on society at the time....

Again, it is important to note this is not about how one culture interacts with another. For example the Spartans and the Helots (descended from tribes that Sparta conquered). As abhorrent as that situation was, the Spartans did not believe they were following an evil religion, although nearly everybody else in Greece found their ideas and philosophies repellant. Although they were not above accommodating the Spartans to get help with threats external to Greece like the Persians.

Agreed. People almost always have the view there way is right, "good" etc. I don't see that as hard to grasp at all.

What the premise I believe here, and huge difference between what we see day to day and a fantasy world, is an actual afterlife/place you can visit and people have visited, and adventure in, and come back and tell the tale...also the very powerful can actually build a gate and visit.

So the powerful will have first hand knowledge of what the afterlife is like. Then it becomes a question of does every one who follows a certain path automatically go to Tartarus and if so is it eternal torment for all or not? IF you automatically go there and automatically get tormented, very unlikely anyone who knows that will follow a path that leads to Tatarus, perhaps that is why Lichdom is the way for powerful necromancers.

There is the rub though, who knows that? How certain is that knowledge? Now the common folk have less knowledge and thus this can be exploited, to tell them no Tartarus isn't what they say, it's not all torment all the time for everyone.

I guess for me it comes down to doubt. As I am the author of my own setting, it's easy enough to build in doubt, and good to keep in mind what the game books tell us is not what the average setting NPC knows I've my ways to build in doubt in the cosmology and interesting to see the ways of others.

 

[AsenRG]

But all this only makes religion make more sense. If the Gods are real and evident, then surely you must follow the teachings of churches and priests dedicated to them? The only thing that makes less sense in a world like this is not being religious

On the argument about past belief. My point wasn't that they are identical. A person believing in witches in the middle ages is not the same as a person in a fantasy world turned to a newt by a witch (because witches in the medieval and early modern era were a product of Christian imagination). Belief in a prior period shaped peoples view of the world, it didn't shape reality itself. But I think a lot people living in the present underestimate the impact that worldviews have on how people see reality

Also, your previous point was still correct. Because it's not about what proof is available, it's about how much people are influenced by it.

I mean, if proof was enough to change minds, flat earthers would only need to look at pictures, right?

Hence, the proof of the existence of witches makes no difference to the people who already genuinely believed that witches exist!

Now, the physical presence of the proof itself, coupled with a preacher, might just push them to do something about it*, but that's all.


*Amusingly, I think I've played a DCC funnel which started kinda like this! To give the authors more credit, they also noted that strong spirit was involved, too...

 

[BedrockBrendan]

Also, your previous point was still correct. Because it's not about what proof is available, it's about how much people are influenced by it.

I mean, if proof was enough to change minds, flat earthers would only need to look at pictures, right?

Hence, the proof of the existence of witches makes no difference to the people who already genuinely believed that witches exist!

Now, the physical presence of the proof itself, coupled with a preacher, might just push them to do something about it*, but that's all.


*Amusingly, I think I've played a DCC funnel which started kinda like this! To give the authors more credit, they also noted that strong spirit was involved, too...

It is also worth stating that religious experiences are still a thing, even in today's world. There are people today who will sharply disagree on whether or not they have seen or felt supernatural events. And there are entire cultures that profoundly believe in the supernatural, ghosts, a god or gods, etc.

 

[Lessa]

Agreed. People almost always have the view there way is right, "good" etc. I don't see that as hard to grasp at all.

What the premise I believe here, and huge difference between what we see day to day and a fantasy world, is an actual afterlife/place you can visit and people have visited, and adventure in, and come back and tell the tale...also the very powerful can actually build a gate and visit.

So the powerful will have first hand knowledge of what the afterlife is like. Then it becomes a question of does every one who follows a certain path automatically go to Tartarus and if so is it eternal torment for all or not? IF you automatically go there and automatically get tormented, very unlikely anyone who knows that will follow a path that leads to Tatarus, perhaps that is why Lichdom is the way for powerful necromancers.

There is the rub though, who knows that? How certain is that knowledge? Now the common folk have less knowledge and thus this can be exploited, to tell them no Tartarus isn't what they say, it's not all torment all the time for everyone.

I guess for me it comes down to doubt. As I am the author of my own setting, it's easy enough to build in doubt, and good to keep in mind what the game books tell us is not what the average setting NPC knows I've my ways to build in doubt in the cosmology and interesting to see the ways of others.

Superb post Xanther, and also a nice hook for adventures (I'd love to play in the context you describe, and see how a revolution unfolds and the masses react when faced with the truth guarded by the elites).

It also helps rationalize the Planescape setting, and why Sigil culture has their "religion" grounded more on philosophical beliefs than divine ones.

 

[CRKrueger]

But all this only makes religion make more sense. If the Gods are real and evident, then surely you must follow the teachings of churches and priests dedicated to them? The only thing that makes less sense in a world like this is not being religious

On the argument about past belief. My point wasn't that they are identical. A person believing in witches in the middle ages is not the same as a person in a fantasy world turned to a newt by a witch (because witches in the medieval and early modern era were a product of Christian imagination). Belief in a prior period shaped peoples view of the world, it didn't shape reality itself. But I think a lot people living in the present underestimate the impact that worldviews have on how people see reality

It's true that people underestimate how deep historical peoples' belief in the supernatural was. I think it's overestimated, however, how much you can extrapolate to actual fantasy settings based on belief alone.

 

[CRKrueger]

It is also worth stating that religious experiences are still a thing, even in today's world. There are people today who will sharply disagree on whether or not they have seen or felt supernatural events. And there are entire cultures that profoundly believe in the supernatural, ghosts, a god or gods, etc.

True, but there's not a single one of them that has anyone who can call down a pillar of fire on command. Or Raise the Dead.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

True, but there's not a single one of them that has anyone who can call down a pillar of fire on command. Or Raise the Dead.

Again though, this gets into matter of religious belief. Not everyone is going to believe it, but there certainly are people who would assert people have been raised from the dead or that they have seen someone do something approaching calling down a pillar of fire. My point isn't that there are people doing these things. It is just that belief in them can be profound. Religion aside looks at a guy like George Dillman. Now he wasn't raining fire from the sky but he was claiming to hurl Qi energy through the air at people, and the people in attendance would fall or pass out as a result. Now I believe 100% this is fake. But I also think the people getting knocked out were mostly not in on the con, but were impacted by the power of suggestion (I think Dillman may even believe what he does is real, in a delusional kind of way). Or if you look at something like ghosts I mentioned. If someone believes in ghosts they will often completely interpret something like sleep apnea as a a supernatural event (and might even sense or see a spirit sitting on their chest).

I do agree, this is very different from a world with delayed blast fireball. But part of that has to do with D&D magic, doesn't really reflect real world magic or religious belief all that well (and even when it does these are usually not powers that are deployed as regularly as they are in a standard D&D setting). So that is a potential issue in terms of emulation. Going to address that in my response to your other post

 

[BedrockBrendan]

It's true that people underestimate how deep historical peoples' belief in the supernatural was. I think it's overestimated, however, how much you can extrapolate to actual fantasy settings based on belief alone.

But extrapolation of real world religious beliefs and beliefs in the supernatural to a fantasy setting is a creative thought experiment. We don't have a lab where we can test out what is going to actually be the case. And what people are willing to accept here is going to depend a lot on their assumptions they bring in. That said, I do think if I were doing an honest thought experiment about magic and religion in a D&D like world things may look very different, and frankly all of society and the economy would look very different too. But things would also probably start looking kind of wonky, and less tethered to the real world, which I think can break peoples suspension of disbelief (even if what you are doing is a fully committed thought experiment to playing out what would truly be the case). So even though I probably feel a fantasy world should be pretty different than we imagine it, in many many respects....I tend to think reflection the real world is going to still be more believable to most people.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Given the lack of evidence supporting the existence of gods in our world combined with the preponderance of religion, I can only imagine that the human reaction to proof of the divine would be significant denial.

 

[robertsconley]

It's true that people underestimate how deep historical peoples' belief in the supernatural was. I think it's overestimated, however, how much you can extrapolate to actual fantasy settings based on belief alone.

It wasn't just belief; it was also a culture's rationalization of how the world worked. For example, an individual suffers trauma, disease, or some type of health event. Said individual in a state where they appear to be dead. But then the local healer/priest/shaman/etc, feeds them an infusion with a heavy simulant, which jolts them back awake.

Now you and I know from medical research using the scientific method, what likely happened. Likely we know the percentage chance of an impure solution containing the simulant actually working on the average individual.

But millennium ago, this was explained by magic and/or religion. Sure it didn't work all the time, but it worked enough to be "good enough" and make it into the lore.

People back then weren't stupid, they learned, listened, and observed just as good or bad as we did. The difference is that they had to fit that in the framework of their culture. For all intent purposes, making a poultice was just as much of a magical spell for them as the making of a healing potion for a bunch of D&D characters.

Take a more common occurrence, taking care of a broken bone. Today we learn how to do it as part of first aid or paramedic training. Medical research has been distilled into a relatively easy to learn set of procedures that accounts for the different ways that a bone could break.

Circa 3,000 BC, similar information was wrapped in a culture's view of magic and religion. At its heart, it is still roughly the same information we learn today. But it overlaid with a bunch of stuff we moderns would consider irrelevant but was viewed as essential for taking care of broken bones for that culture at that time.

 

[xanther]

....Circa 3,000 BC, similar information was wrapped in a culture's view of magic and religion. At its heart, it is still roughly the same information we learn today. But it overlaid with a bunch of stuff we moderns would consider irrelevant but was viewed as essential for taking care of broken bones for that culture at that time.

Ahhh but do we not still scribe magical spells of well wishes upon a cast to guarantee good healing?

 

[xanther]

Superb post Xanther, and also a nice hook for adventures (I'd love to play in the context you describe, and see how a revolution unfolds and the masses react when faced with the truth guarded by the elites).

Thanks Lessa, personally I use a different form of doubt combined with less guarantees inspired primarily by the ancient Egyptian books of the dead. That is, once you die your "soul" does not necessarily get to it's final destination immediately. There is a journey through the astral sea, and you could get lost or snatched or tricked along the way.

Hence the importance of funerary rituals, last rite, proper burials, knowing the proper prayers and things to say to ensure you get there. Also why dying certain ways or places makes a difference. Also why having high belief is important, as that can get you a personal escort by the servitors of your deity; that and you also likely know exactly what to say and how to say when if confronted by another deities servitor (almost always one from those afterlives that are places of torment) trying to trick you so they can "steal" your soul...there are rules after all, they just can't snatch it.

We've actually included this in our games when a PC gets killed the game isn't over, if they can get to their home or preferred afterlife then much easier to bring them back, makes investment in those religion / belief "skills" more useful. I even give out xp for this afterlife journey and it became a running joke as getting 500 xp the hard way (as that was how much xp one player's PC got the first time we did this), they eventually got him raised.

 

[Lessa]

Thanks Lessa, personally I use a different form of doubt combined with less guarantees inspired primarily by the ancient Egyptian books of the dead. That is, once you die your "soul" does not necessarily get to it's final destination immediately. There is a journey through the astral sea, and you could get lost or snatched or tricked along the way.

Hence the importance of funerary rituals, last rite, proper burials, knowing the proper prayers and things to say to ensure you get there. Also why dying certain ways or places makes a difference. Also why having high belief is important, as that can get you a personal escort by the servitors of your deity; that and you also likely know exactly what to say and how to say when if confronted by another deities servitor (almost always one from those afterlives that are places of torment) trying to trick you so they can "steal" your soul...there are rules after all, they just can't snatch it.

We've actually included this in our games when a PC gets killed the game isn't over, if they can get to their home or preferred afterlife then much easier to bring them back, makes investment in those religion / belief "skills" more useful. I even give out xp for this afterlife journey and it became a running joke as getting 500 xp the hard way (as that was how much xp one player's PC got the first time we did this), they eventually got him raised.

Really like this stuff. Is this canon D&D though? Can't remember reading this, well at least not in my Planescape books. haha

 

[LikelyArrow]

Ahhh but do we not still scribe magical spells of well wishes upon a cast to guarantee good healing?

Also on actual tiny scrolls. Thankfully pharmacists are trained in Read Magic.

 

[Lessa]

True, but there's not a single one of them that has anyone who can call down a pillar of fire on command. Or Raise the Dead.

Except there is. It's called Cure Cancer.

Miracles are still a thing nowadays as it ever was, for those who believe in them.

 

[T. Foster]

Really like this stuff. Is this canon D&D though? Can't remember reading this, well at least not in my Planescape books. haha

It was mentioned in 1E Deities & Demigods (1980) but never developed and detailed, and seemingly completely ignored by everything that came later (presumably because TSR was scared of the parental backlash of going into too much detail about “this is how the afterlife REALLY works, kids”).

 

[xanther]

Really like this stuff. Is this canon D&D though? Can't remember reading this, well at least not in my Planescape books. haha

This is not canon D&D in any sense that I know. May be heretical though These concepts on no guarantees, etc. have been using since about 1979 or so for my fantasy RPG setting. In '79 we used a mix of OD&D and AD&D rules (IIRC we were not able to get a copy of the DMG in our area until 1980) with a dash of homebrew and a few Dragon articles, by '85 the rules had evolved into there own thing...and continued to evolve

 

[xanther]

It was mentioned in 1E Deities & Demigods (1980) but never developed and detailed, and seemingly completely ignored by everything that came later (presumably because TSR was scared of the parental backlash of going into too much detail about “this is how the afterlife REALLY works, kids”).

Just pulled out my 1E Deities & Demigods (the first printing). What I describe is not there. There is only a repeat of the alignment coded planes of existence, different afterlife planes, and this weird nested geography and alignment coded circle of planes, but never used that.

The concept that how you live determines where you go when you die...pretty sure knew that from other sources besides D&D and didn't need D&D to say different deities pantheons may have different places Now the alignment alignment, that's D&D but never cared for alignment and pretty much ditched how the DMG told you to use it like 2 sessions after trying that out.

EDIT: Also just pulled out my Supplement IV "God's Demi-Gods, & Heroes" (alas only a 7th printing) it's not there either in any way shape or form.

 

[rumble]

Maybe I'm too traditional in my fantasy games but I can't conceive of a fantasy game without religion.

What you need to do is game in a world without imagination.

The language would be a lot like how people can German works. Instead of creating a word for "dead," it would just be, "dude that's not moving" or "dude that bear ate."

Zombies would be a bit problematic. Maybe "dude that got ate by a bear but OMG he's still moving." Fortunately the people who invent such words don't get them out fast enough to pass them on to the next generation.