Moderation Criticisms

[Nobby-W]

[ . . . ]
These are the more extreme and obvious examples of course, but there is an undercurrent of hostility and mocking that is prevalent in most of his forum interactions. It's odd to me that the author of The Alexandrian resorts to playground insults. It seems like a lack of either maturity or self confidence to not simply let their arguments stand and speak for themselves.

Tenbones was totally asking for that, though.

tenbones said:
I think deep down you love me like Norton does. You want the D.O.N.G. Black Belt, that's what it is. You craves it!

What on earth would I do with your objectively microscopic D.O.N.G.?

It's even less impressive than that limp non-entity which passes for your "wit."

Although it would have worked better if he'd stopped at the first line. Actually, that's probably the only line that I'd replied with if I was in his shoes.

 

[EmperorNorton]

FATE (for example) was notorious for this about 5 or 10 years ago and The Forge sounds like it turned into a shitshow at some point.

I imagine it would surprise a lot of people here to know that I honestly strongly dislike FATE. Like I'm sure I could enjoy a game of it, but something about FATE, I understand how it is supposed to work, but every time I've actually played it or tried to run it it just bounces off me.

 

[Nobby-W]

I imagine it would surprise a lot of people here to know that I honestly strongly dislike FATE. Like I'm sure I could enjoy a game of it, but something about FATE, I understand how it is supposed to work, but every time I've actually played it or tried to run it it just bounces off me.

You've not come across to me as any sort of partisan narrativism fanboy, at least not in any postings I've read of yours.

 

[Giganotosaurus]

IMO (and sorry to talk about you in the third person @CRKruger, but please do read this in the spirit that it's intended) this is not a partisan argument, at least not from my perspective. I've never read the forge and I'm not here as some sort of storygaming activist; I just run some games using one. IMO most of the fights are about his abrasive style pissing folks off as much as anything rooted in ideology. For example, The Alexandrian is clearly not a storygaming advocacy site, and his Youtube channel mostly talks about D&D. I've not seen anything to suggest that he's particularly -ist about the subject; it looks like a personality clash rather than anything about ideology.

Certainly the narrativist world has its share of obnoxious fanboys - FATE (for example) was notorious for this about 5 or 10 years ago and The Forge sounds like it turned into a shitshow at some point. This feels like baggage from old flame wars as much as anything else.

Honestly, I genuinely have no idea what the argument is about. Storygames are bettter than non-story games? That feels like claiming Sci-Fi is better than Fantasy, or chunky Peanutbutter is better than creamy Peanutbutter. They're way too broad and way too different to really compare.
Mind you I haven't been in the hobby very long so I don't really understand all the background that built up to this argument, I just keep seeing it pop up every couple of months here.

 

[Nobby-W]

Honestly, I genuinely have no idea what the argument is about. Storygames are bettter than non-story games?

I think it's baggage from old flamewars on the topic, possibly driven by some obnoxious narrativist fanboys somewhere, although I don't know what venue it took place in. I don't really get the hate either.

 

[Brock Savage]

Honestly, I genuinely have no idea what the argument is about.

Honestly I don't get it either even after asking to have it explained to me multiple times. I want to be clear that I am not trying to be rude or dismissive, I legit don't understand what the big deal is even though I have tried.

 

[EOTB]

I'm not any sort of regular here, so take what I say with a grain of salt -

A big tent board its always going to have people that are the anti-matter to your matter but ignore lists work great. Ignore lists mean "I've decided your opinion doesn't add value to my time spent, and I don't even get entertainment value from the sparring". Yeah, they might quote you, talk about you "behind your back" on a public board, and in general let you live rent free in their head. But if you're putting them on ignore then you're absolutely cool with that. Because it's a very, bery bad look for them. They look desperate.

Always let people you're willing to ignore look like that if they insist.

 

[Toadmaster]

Sorry but most of the complaints I've seen against the staff basically comes down to "you don't mod the way I want you to". I guess that makes sense as most of the more rancorous threads tend to come down to "bad wrong fun" threads.

So somebody plays their game wrong. Oh the humanity I won't be able to sleep knowing you play different than me.

Yeah, no. Carry on.

 

[Baulderstone]

Honestly, I genuinely have no idea what the argument is about. Storygames are bettter than non-story games? That feels like claiming Sci-Fi is better than Fantasy, or chunky Peanutbutter is better than creamy Peanutbutter. They're way too broad and way too different to really compare.
Mind you I haven't been in the hobby very long so I don't really understand all the background that built up to this argument, I just keep seeing it pop up every couple of months here.

I've been playing RPGs since the '80s and been working in game-related jobs as far back as the mid-90s, and I don't get it either. I like games on both sides of this idiot tribalism, so I have to take crap from both directions. The most annoying thing is that all kinds of RPGs are doing great right now. Whatever style of RPG you like, there is an enormous range of options available and plenty of people playing them. Yet you have people treating every online debate as if their preferred playstyle is at risk of extinction if they don't "win", whatever that means.

 

[EmperorNorton]

I mean, I don't think I've ever said any style is worse than another style. I like a huge variety of games all over the place. My annoyance doesn't come from people playing differently than me, but from what I see as hostility towards certain forms of play. And people telling me what the games I have played do, when I have personal experience playing the systems. I'm very much in the vein of "do what works at your table" and always have been.

Like seriously, try to find a single post from me that actually shits on anyone else's style. (I think the closest you can get is my hatred of ThAC0. And maybe my discussion of medieval farming, but I think with that both I missed the point of what other people were saying, and that by extension they missed the point of what I was saying.)

 

[chuckdee]

Adulting is possible people.

Honestly, I genuinely have no idea what the argument is about.

I identify with this statement so much. I started to post those exact words, and thought people would look at me like I was stupid. I never even saw anything in the threads for the first 3 months or so I was here and thought everything was fine and everyone got along. Then I happened to just look at all new instead of what came up on my feed and thought, "Moderation Thread? What is this?"

... and down the rabbit hole of 'huh?' I went...

 

[Toadmaster]

View attachment 27878



I identify with this statement so much. I started to post those exact words, and thought people would look at me like I was stupid. I never even saw anything in the threads for the first 3 months or so I was here and thought everything was fine and everyone got along. Then I happened to just look at all new instead of what came up on my feed and thought, "Moderation Thread? What is this?"

... and down the rabbit hole of 'huh?' I went...

Yeah, I don't see much of drama as I tend to skip over those posts and usually disengage when a discussion I'm involved in starts to get heated or replies start to become the "gotcha" word twister type. Just not that many things I care about enough to spend that kind of energy on anymore.

 

[TristramEvans]

I identify with this statement so much. I started to post those exact words, and thought people would look at me like I was stupid. I never even saw anything in the threads for the first 3 months or so I was here and thought everything was fine and everyone got along. Then I happened to just look at all new instead of what came up on my feed and thought, "Moderation Thread? What is this?"

... and down the rabbit hole of 'huh?' I went...

That's the thing, these spats are isolated to a small fraction of threads here. I think one could read 80-90% of The Pub and never encounter any of the issues.

 

[opaopajr]

A lot of cross-forum grudges come from rehashed debates beyond one's patience, and moments of exposing one's feet of clay versus one's infallible miter (pope hat). As long as parties mostly keep it to the topic and elbows not jabbed too sharp into the person, I could care less. Every place, physical or virtual, goes through the ebb and flow of social currents; you can only manage the 'waters' so much, so I tend to take a break around a forum's PMS time.

I love full throated debate and acerbic humor, and having known CRKrueger & Justin Alexander before from TheRPGSite I have deeply appreciated their contributions even if they come on strong. But lines have been drawn sharper of late throughout the world, grudge axes honed, and this place has been going for a more genteel vibe. The friction versus the ideal was obvious to me years ago and I stated my disbelief in its aspiration as such upon my first entrance. Not being mean, just a warning to embrace disillusionment before the realization "There is no Eden," hurts.

That said, if this has been the worst we've had of it until now how fortunate! A testament to our small size and friendly community as well as a laissez faire moderation. May we keep an even keel in the coming storms of drama.

(And new guys, don't worry about most of the parties involved here. They have thicker skins and lasting history that it is only a matter of time and place they'll cross swords again... almost happily. If you think of it as recurring theatre it even becomes comforting, like a lullaby. We're all like friends, or at the very least as the kids say "frenemies.")

 

[Gringnr]

I've been playing RPGs since the '80s and been working in game-related jobs as far back as the mid-90s, and I don't get it either. I like games on both sides of this idiot tribalism, so I have to take crap from both directions. The most annoying thing is that all kinds of RPGs are doing great right now. Whatever style of RPG you like, there is an enormous range of options available and plenty of people playing them. Yet you have people treating every online debate as if their preferred playstyle is at risk of extinction if they don't "win", whatever that means.

This. I tend to view this in the same way as films: you need the big, commercial, slick stuff, and the small, DIY indie stuff. Kind of like how, without Miramax, no one takes a chance on Quentin Tarantino. One hand washes the others. We need the Michael Bays as much as we need the El Mariachi-era Robert Rodriguezes. And when the pie is bigger, there's more for everyone. I've never even so much as opened a 5e book, but I'm glad it exists. Same for "Angsty Animal Accountants", or whatever indie darling is currently generating a buzz on itch.

I, too, have been gaming since the 80s, and I'm not sure I know the difference between a storygame and an RPG, but I am 100% certain that I don't care, and that anyone who wants me to care is someone whose opinion I probably won't value.

WRT to the current drama, I don't really have anything to contribute. I feel that losing Justin Alexander would be a loss to the forum, but one monkey don't stop no show. Besides, online communities ebb and flow. Just like social groups IRL. It happens, and more so in communities where passions run high. I don't think anyone here is ambivalent about gaming. There will be disagreements. There will be people who leave the forum.

I agree there is a lot of chicken littling about the hobby being "overrun" or changed by "them". Pundit's latest video is about a Kickstarter for a game with a REALLY narrow focus that made over 3k, and he's holding it up as an example of "what they want RPGs to be". Where would that dickhead be without hyperbole? This is the equivalent of the "Satanic Panic" of the 80s. I've never met anyone with an actual interest in the occult in all my years of roleplaying (not that I knew of, anyway), and I've never been accosted by a storygamer orsomeone who wanted to "change" gaming in all of that time, either. A "solution" in search of a problem, if you ask me. But, hey, what do I know?

Anyway, I'm not weighing in on the conflict here, as I'm still not sure I understand it, and even if I did, it's nothing to do with me.

At the end of the day, as someone who ran a forum for 5 years, people are going to come and go. You can't stop it. Have some clear and accessible rules, stick to your guns, let the chips fall where they may. I feel that I haven't been the best at following the rules here, and I'm making an effort to change that. This conflict is an opportunity to see something like this from the outside. Hope it works out for everyone.

 

[Dammit Victor]

So from the way I take it, several people here want Krueger banned permanently? After he’s gone, who’s next on the list?

I'm not here to call for his banning, either temporarily or permanently-- I am only here to support Justin's argument that refusing to address trolls personally, censuring people for responding to their bullshit, and closing down discussions they've disrupted is rewarding their behavior, particular that last one when shutting down any and all discussion of topics they don't like is the motivation for their behavior.

Allowing people to disrupt conversations with impunity until everyone leaves or you shut the whole thread down isn't anti-censorship; it's just delegating the act of censorship to your least reasonable members.

If you want to talk about the slippery slope, there's only one other member of this forum on my Ignore List-- and you've already banned him.

Otherwise, I don't care if you ban CRKrueger or not, but I will ask you to pay more attention to how you're allowing him to control certain topics.

 

[Ronnie Sanford]

I've known quite a few pagans, witches, and dabblers. As a young guy from a very religious background it really disturbed me at first. There is was, the infamous connection between D&D and the occult. One of my friends, who was the head of the local neo-pagan society was murdered and that threw me for a bit of a loop but it also gave me a chance to get to know many of his friends better and broadened my mind.

It's a funny thing, I'm still religious, and a believer, and I don't believe in magic even a little bit. Still, I try to be respectful of the delusions of others as long as they're respectful of mine.

I'm not here to call for his banning, either temporarily or permanently-- I am only here to support Justin's argument that refusing to address trolls personally, censuring people for responding to their bullshit, and closing down discussions they've disrupted is rewarding their behavior, particular that last one when shutting down any and all discussion of topics they don't like is the motivation for their behavior.

Allowing people to disrupt conversations with impunity until everyone leaves or you shut the whole thread down isn't anti-censorship; it's just delegating the act of censorship to your least reasonable members.

If you want to talk about the slippery slope, there's only one other member of this forum on my Ignore List-- and you've already banned him.

Otherwise, I don't care if you ban CRKrueger or not, but I will ask you to pay more attention to how you're allowing him to control certain topics.

And see I don’t see CRKrueger as a troll at all. In fact I find him extremely insightful if sometimes abrasive. On the other hand I find some of the people complaining to be a bit hardheaded and condescending.

 

[Ronnie Sanford]

Not to mention Oreos are getting a little pricey :-)

 

[Endless Flight]

I'm not here to call for his banning, either temporarily or permanently-- I am only here to support Justin's argument that refusing to address trolls personally, censuring people for responding to their bullshit, and closing down discussions they've disrupted is rewarding their behavior, particular that last one when shutting down any and all discussion of topics they don't like is the motivation for their behavior.

Allowing people to disrupt conversations with impunity until everyone leaves or you shut the whole thread down isn't anti-censorship; it's just delegating the act of censorship to your least reasonable members.

If you want to talk about the slippery slope, there's only one other member of this forum on my Ignore List-- and you've already banned him.

Otherwise, I don't care if you ban CRKrueger or not, but I will ask you to pay more attention to how you're allowing him to control certain topics.

Like I’ve said before, he’s been thread-banned more than anyone else here. You can’t control him more than that on a thread by thread basis.

 

[TristramEvans]

I'm not here to call for his banning, either temporarily or permanently-- I am only here to support Justin's argument that refusing to address trolls personally, censuring people for responding to their bullshit, and closing down discussions they've disrupted is rewarding their behavior, particular that last one when shutting down any and all discussion of topics they don't like is the motivation for their behavior.

Allowing people to disrupt conversations with impunity until everyone leaves or you shut the whole thread down isn't anti-censorship; it's just delegating the act of censorship to your least reasonable members.

If you want to talk about the slippery slope, there's only one other member of this forum on my Ignore List-- and you've already banned him.

Otherwise, I don't care if you ban CRKrueger or not, but I will ask you to pay more attention to how you're allowing him to control certain topics.

I think that the first part of your post is absolutely correct - that some posters have attempted to control discussions by making a scene and causing confrontations in a deliberate attempt to shut down threads.

But that behaviour is not one that I'd ascribe to CRKruegar.

And it is something we're taking more and more notice of and calling people out on.

 

[Dammit Victor]

We can disagree on the middle point, I suppose, but what I care more about is that we're in agreement on the last point.

 

[Baulderstone]

Just to clarify the last point, the thread that was shut down as a pro-sandbox thread leading off from a comment by Tenbones, something that I feel safe in saying Krueger wouldn't be biased against.

 

[CRKrueger]

We can disagree on the middle point, I suppose, but what I care more about is that we're in agreement on the last point.

Care to discuss, based on the actual thread quotes, where I was threadcrapping and trolling Justin as I was explaining why I thought Flashbacks and Tools were incompatible with a Living World?

 

[opaopajr]

... Give it a 72 hour breathing room before you get into, guys. Just bask in the tentative agreement and subsequent kumbaya while you have it. Things run the risk of misfires and near misses due to "latent ether tachyon tension." /drawing up RPGPUB star charts

 

[EmperorNorton]

Just to clarify the last point, the thread that was shut down as a pro-sandbox thread leading off from a comment by Tenbones, something that I feel safe in saying Krueger wouldn't be biased against.

Probably because Tenbones isn't the only person posting in the thread? Hell, no one in the thread was "anti-sandbox", but many people disagreed on the idea that "sandboxing takes objectively the most skill to run". And then some disagreement on what "sandbox" means. I think defining the conversation by what the opening post is is missing a lot of the context.

 

[EmperorNorton]

I think that the first part of your post is absolutely correct - that some posters have attempted to control discussions by making a scene and causing confrontations in a deliberate attempt to shut down threads.

But that behaviour is not one that I'd ascribe to CRKruegar.

And it is something we're taking more and more notice of and calling people out on.

If you think someone is doing this, then call it out, so they can at least defend themselves. Because my sneaking suspicion is you are talking about me, and this couldn't be farther from the truth on what I'm doing.

 

[TristramEvans]

If you think someone is doing this, then call it out, so they can at least defend themselves. Because my sneaking suspicion is you are talking about me, and this couldn't be farther from the truth on what I'm doing.

Numerous posters have been accused of this in reports and PMs we get, and it's something we're keeping an eye out for to judge for ourselves. If we think it's happening, we'll say something. I simply think that while it's a valid concern, it's not a description I'd apply to CRK's posting habits. We look closely at ths stuff for every poster when contnued problems arise.

 

[BedrockBrendan]

I would just say, one reason I like this forum is, generally, generally (obviously there are exceptions to this), you have people engaging in conversations that in other places would probably be screaming matches or a mob of posters against one poster's point of view. And you have a wider range of viewpoints present. Here I feel like there is more of a balance overall. If I say something that sounds right, and sounds right to people who agree with me, but not to those who disagree, I can count on someone from another perspective coming in if there is weakness we don't see in what I said. That is useful. And it is particularly good that the crowds are more balanced here (when that happens in a forum where you are the lone voice, you feel kind of crazy, when you are joining in the chorus, you wonder if it is an echo-chamber). I also like being in a forum where, up to recently at least, you could have posters like Justin Alexander and Krueger, expressing wildly different points of view. I think the only time it becomes annoying is when people get passive aggressive or engage in personal attacks (or when people bait). And I think some of the playstyle fighting is annoying, but I understand how hard it is to let that stuff go after years of feuding (and it isn't like playstyle is an unimportant thing). Hopefully things calm and eventually Justin Alexander returns. For what it is worth, when posters say impulsive things or even attack me, as long as it isn't crossing the line out of gaming (like they are not saying stuff about my family), I am happy to forget about it once I have calmed down.

 

[Endless Flight]

I would certainly welcome Justin back. I have enjoyed many of his contributions. The other guys can speak for themselves but I’m sure they feel the same way: we don’t take moderator criticism as a personal affront. I don’t read these kinds of threads and say “how dare they!!!” I think we all try to think of ways to improve how we do things here. We just don’t like to make sweeping changes. It’s worked pretty well the last four years.

 

[cranebump]

Took a while, and some backtracking to the original thread, to figure out what this was all about. Only comments I have:

1) Justin will be missed. I always found his insights valuable.

and

2) “abrasive style” is obviously a euphemism for serial jackassery.

 

[Ronnie Sanford]

Took a while, and some backtracking to the original thread, to figure out what this was all about. Only comments I have:

1) Justin will be missed. I always found his insights valuable.

and

2) “abrasive style” is obviously a euphemism for serial jackassery.

Whether is jackassery or just keeping it real are matters of opinion.

 

[cranebump]

Whether is jackassery or just keeping it real are matters of opinion.

Thus implying that “keeping it real” requires jackassery (and getting a pass for it).

One person responds? Call it opinion. Two? A trend.

Multiple people respond and you get threadbanned more than anyone? Time to look in the mirror.

 

[CRKrueger]

Time to look in the mirror.

Sounds like you do enough of that for all of us.

 

[Voros]

 

[Ronnie Sanford]

Thus implying that “keeping it real” requires jackassery (and getting a pass for it).

One person responds? Call it opinion. Two? A trend.

Multiple people respond and you get threadbanned more than anyone? Time to look in the mirror.

There was no jackassery as nobody was malicious trying to insult people. It's all in your head.

 

[chuckdee]

 

[CRKrueger]

 

[cranebump]

There was no jackassery as nobody was malicious trying to insult people. It's all in your head.

Thread overtly stated a certain individual has received more thread bans than anyone. That’s a fact, not something I made up.

 

[cranebump]

Sounds like you do enough of that for all of us.

I see you found that shoe and slipped it right on. Again.

But if you’re saying I self-reflect, then yeah. Sorry this seems to be a foreign concept for you.

 

[chuckdee]

I don't report people, as it's cool with me if people bitch slap back and forth as long as I'm not trying to actually talk in a thread. But that adulting thing above... yeah.