Powered by the Apocalypse

[Caesar Slaad]

Caesar Slaad , have you tried The Veil? It looks pretty distinct from The Sprawl.

About Masks, is it really bashed like that? I always hear it's one of the best iterations of the engine. And it seems so through my reading of it (never played it though).

I was looking at the Sprawl and the Veil at the same time, and came down on the side of the Sprawl. I'd be glad to try it sometime if it pops up at a con, but I can't just buy every game. Well I could, but I probably shouldn't...

As for Masks, lots of people like it, but I have heard that complaint from a few AW-adoptees who don't like what it changes, etc. So FWIW...

 

[Caesar Slaad]

Can you tell me more about these two games? I think my local game store has both in stock and I haven't been able to decide if I should buy them or not.

I thought I posted my review of Scum & Villainy here, but I can't seem to find it.

It probably deserves its own thread, but in the meantime...
https://plus.google.com/u/0/118129002933793223889/posts/ZyHcLLEf1m4

 

[Mankcam]

I like what I have seen with Blades In The Dark, but I'm not sure why it gets so much press.
It's looks pretty good, but it doesn't seem all that revolutionary, it's just a Lankhmar/ Thieves World setting, perhaps a bit of steampunk (I'm not sure).
It has a cool vibe to it, but I am not sure why it gets spoken about like its a game changer. The modern dials are not anything that hasn't been done before.

However I do like it, so I will reserve my judgement until I run a few sessions. It may all work well as a package.

Unfortunately my group doesn't like system-hopping as much as I do. They will likely just want to play something like this in D&D or BRP, or perhaps Fate Core, so I may never get to see it played properly at the gaming table.

 

[Séadna]

If you ever wanted to run a heist but didn't want it to in any way test your ability to plan a heist and wanted to do it in a setting where the only interesting part of the setting is some kind of demon barrier whose only function is keeping you in the city so you can only do heists, it's the game for you.

Oh yeah Mr. Perfect let's see you write an RPG book about a Medieval city.

 

[The Butcher]

What do you like about it? Everybody keeps saying this, I'm dying to play it.

Because it’s laser-focused on what it does — teslapunk fantasy heists in a cursed city.

And the storygaming crowd digs itself a laser-focused game.

My group played it and loved it. I missed it out because baby, but by all accounts it was well received.

 

[Lessa]

What do you like about it? Everybody keeps saying this, I'm dying to play it.

The game is a mix of two layers :

- A crime syndicate boardgame where the group picks an crew type (Smugglers, Thieves, Breakers, Assassins, etc) and choose operations to embark (called Scores) to increase your hold or assets, or to rise in the reputation ladder while keeping the Heat (=authorities) low and rival gangs in check. There's this huge table of pre-created factions of all tiers and types, with a little blank space near to track relationship with yours. With the caveat that they also have preset relations between them, so each score you do you're not only busting the target, but raising or dropping your relations with their allies or enemies. And once a relation reach certain thresholds, those factions start to actively act against, or helping, you. So your relationships are always in flux.

- An action layer of scoundrels doing quasi-legal stuff while managing stress and vices - everything you do costs stress, and if it fills up you're out. The only way to clean stress is engaging in your vices, but doing so risks accruing Heat from authorities or stepping in some rivals' toes.

All that in an alternative Victorian Teslapunk sprawl with supernatural threats in it's cracks (see the Thief and Dishonored videogames), with rules that funnels both layers into this chess of gang warfare and stress/vices managing where every move you do spills shit in someone else.

 

[Lessa]

Séadna , also, all that stuff is nicely presented in a pick-and-play and easy to use way in the book. There are neatly drawed maps and vistas of each city district, randomizing tables, etc. Its a really nice package.

One thing that may be divisive is how the scores are planned. The group is not supposed to spend time covering every detail over a map of the target like in traditional games. Instead, the group picks an overall approach from a list of options (Sneaking, Assault, etc), decide on the point of entry and just jump immediately to the entrance scene. Any problem that comes up in that scene are dealed with through Flashbacks, where players spent Stress to "remember" previously prepared ploys or contingency actions. This later feature is not so prominent like it sounds, though, as Stress is also your "Hit Points" it's not viable to start pulling "Flashbacks" left and right. (the exception being the Mastermind, a character class that use Flashbacks at a lower cost).

I know I had problems accepting that at first, coming from Shadowrun. I tried to fight the system at first by over planning and it felt awkward. But eventually I let it go and it became fun.

 

[Lessa]

Unfortunately my group doesn't like system-hopping as much as I do. They will likely just want to play something like this in D&D or BRP, or perhaps Fate Core, so I may never get to see it played properly at the gaming table.

Indeed. What makes Blades so fun to me is exactly the interaction of its layers and it's rules of Stress, Vices, Heat, Rep, etc. and how it feeds into the game's themes.

Using just the setting and stripping those rules is like dropping Pendragon's Winter Phase, Virtue Traits and Glory structure and just using it's setting. You just threw away everything that makes Pendragon shine at this point, imho.

 

[The Butcher]

I know I had problems accepting that at first, coming from Shadowrun. I tried to fight the system at first by over planning and it felt awkward. But eventually I let it go and it became fun.

silva was our PbtA spirit guide. Listen to him.

 

[Dirk Remmecke]

If you ever wanted to run a heist but didn't want it to in any way test your ability to plan a heist and wanted to do it in a setting where the only interesting part of the setting is some kind of demon barrier whose only function is keeping you in the city so you can only do heists, it's the game for you.

Blades in the Dark seems to scratch a similar itch* as John Harper's Stranger Things, a game that sadly never got finished - and sounded much more interesting than BitD became. Tony Dowler did maps for both games.

* "It's Hellboy meets Lankhmar, with a dash of Gangs of New York."

 

[Voros]

I've only read BitD but like everything else I've read from Harper it seems very well designed and very well explained.

I haven't seen many saying its revolutionary, just that it is a lot of fun. It seems to have tapped into the whole Dishonored vibe and that has attracted a lot of attention. As to the semi-controversial approach to heists, it tries something different, if one doesn't like it there are lots of other heist RPGs with a more conventional approach to pick from out there.

 

[soltakss]

I didn't find a thread to talk about PbtA games in general, so here it goes. Post your questions, experiences or whatever you feel like.

I have played various versions at Conventions and have enjoyed them. They seem to be pretty easy to pick up and play, the concepts are well-defined, but I would guess they would be very limiting. It reminded me of HeroQuest, but without the free-wheeling, almost like HeroQuest with predefined options.

 

[Mankcam]

I have played various versions at Conventions and have enjoyed them. They seem to be pretty easy to pick up and play, the concepts are well-defined, but I would guess they would be very limiting. It reminded me of HeroQuest, but without the free-wheeling, almost like HeroQuest with predefined options.

This is sort of what I thought as well. HQ kinda did all this a while back, without the same fanfare.

I guess HQ could be counted as a 'storygame' these days, although I'm sure if Robin Laws, Greg Stafford, & Jeff Richard would have liked that moniker, as HQ sort of feels outside of the polarised views on gaming that have emerged.

I don't mind what Blades and PbtA is doing, although I suspect that the same thing can be achieved by HQ more simply, considering HQ is one loose mechanic and a bunch of approaches. I guess some games seem to get on the radar more than others.

 

[Voros]

This is sort of what I thought as well. HQ kinda did all this a while back, without the same fanfare.

I guess HQ could be counted as a 'storygame' these days, although I'm sure if Robin Laws & Greg Stafford would have liked that moniker, as HQ sort of feels outside of the polarised views on gaming that have emerged.

I don't mind what Blades and PbtA is doing, although I suspect that the same thing can be achieved by HQ more simply, considering HQ is one loose mechanic and a bunch of approaches. I guess some games seem to get on the radar more than others.

Considering Stafford called Prince Valiant 'A Storytelling Game' (believe the first to use the term), I doubt he would lose any sleep over any of his games being called that.

 

[Mankcam]

1. John Harper wrote the Ur-story games Primetime Adventures (irony! commercial breaks!) and Lady Blackbird (easy to learn! no reason to learn it!) and trolls all the right people. If he writes it, the entire indie scene pays attention.

2. It's kind of like Apocalypse World but kind of not! Since the indie scene is, in theory, obsessed with theory, but in practice hasn't got enough smart people in it to discuss any real issues, the question of "Is Blades truly Powered By The Apocalypse?" consumed them for a year or so as it was about the level of question they could handle (no real answer, lots of opportunity for we're-all-gamers-here platitudes).

3. The current trend in storygames is: "very close to what a traditional game does (violence, action, missions, fantastic setting) but using PTA instead of a system where you don't have a move list" and doesn't in any way feel like it tests you on how smart you are so gives you no opportunity to fail at anything except rolling dice.

4. Evil Hat, who produce Fate, realized they have literally nobody you could even make an argument is creative working at their company so they distributed Blades for Harper and put all their Evil Hat money behind the push including banner ads at EnWorld and maybe rpgnet.

5. Pretty much everything else Evil Hat has done lately has completely tanked, so they doubled down on pushing Blades.

6. Wooo steampunk.

Love the cynicism, heh heh, you've given me an insight of sorts. I guess that these 'storygames' (I really dislike that name, it's a bit 'sappy') are very different from the approach that you put in your books. But I appreciate you explaining a bit of context.

As an aside, I must say, your sandbox setting rpg books are really great. I stumbled across your Red & Pleasant Land long after the fact, and was intrigued with your artwork, but the content and utility was also excellent. So much so that I went back for Vornheim, and recently grabbed Maze Of the Blue Medusa. So I'm living proof that a consumer can just cherry-pick what they like, as I like a wide range of rpg styles.
My group plays D&D 5E, but I have S&W as well as DCC, which I would use for these settings if it's my turn to GM. Also given that I grew up with RQ/BRP, I'm just as likely to convert the settings to some version of BRP (perhaps Magic World). Given that you kept stat blocks to a minimum, it really helps make conversion easy.

I also play both HeroQuest and Fate Core, so I guess I GM whatever feels good for me at the time. I reluctantly agree that Evil Hat has not been putting their best foot forward with their Fate Core releases. Lackluster or childlike artwork, and no strong signature settings since their pre-Fate Core days. Hell, I'm such a yokel that I I impulsivelly bought the Blades In The Dark book as I thought it was for Fate Core. Evil Hat has produced it in a digest format with the same production as Fate Core. I since purchased Scum & Villainy on a whim, so they are both in my pending reading list.

I don't mind trying new systems (although my troupe prefers consistency), but I don't really get why some games become 'forum darlings', and Blades kind of is at present. There must be something that is grabbing people. Those Heist rules look fun actually, although I am unsure if my group would want to play too many games that way, and I suspect that once the shine wears off that they would prefer a return to the challenges of planning heists etc like they have done for so long in other games.

I'm willing to try new things however, variety is the spice of life as they say. Blades is kind of a novelty game for me, I don't see it being a home base game as a GM.

 

[Lessa]

This is sort of what I thought as well. HQ kinda did all this a while back, without the same fanfare.

Heroquest was never a genre/theme emulator, which is a strong part of PbtA appeal: Masks is about teenage supers' conflict with their elders generation; AW is about drama (and violence) in a high scarcity environment; Sagas is about social and gender roles in norse medieval society; Monsterhearts is about uncontrollable teenagers in high school, etc. "Moves" are really small packets of genre/theme emulation.

Heroquest is theme-agnostic, something more or less anathema to PbtA. So, I don't get the comparison.

Edit: I would say Pendragon is a better comparison, Mankcam.

 

[Ladybird]

Heroquest was never a genre/theme emulator, which is a strong part of PbtA appeal: Masks is about teenage supers' conflict with their elders generation; AW is about drama (and violence) in a high scarcity environment; Sagas is about social and gender roles in norse medieval society; Monsterhearts is about uncontrollable teenagers in high school, etc.

That sort of thing is why I don't think Fate and PbtA belong in the same "conceptual bucket". In the case of a PbtA game, if you're not using a readymade game, I think you need to have a stronger idea of what you want your campaign to be about and the types of characters in it, because there is so much extra work to do before you start playing (Writing the playbooks, especially) and all the PbtA framework really gives you is "miss, partial, hit, remember the fiction".

If Fate is an adaptable toolkit and a set of essays, PbtA is a guide to drawing an owl.

 

[Bashere]

As someone who generally doesn't like what the PbtA game people put out, I am very enamored of Blades in the Dark. I never felt like the system was working against me, and the game feel flexible enough to allow your character to develop how you want and not by soem forced track. I've had a ton of fun and I'm hoping the derailed game manages to get back on track.

 

[Mankcam]

It was pretty much in line with my other PTA experiences.

Good to see we are getting a range of different views regarding the system, as often I only ever read good things about PbtA.

This is not an issue until you see someone posting less enthusiastic views, then only to get drowned out by people saying that the poster just don't understand the system. I appreciate different views if they are articulated well, so thanks for taking the time to explain where you think the leaks in the boat are.

 

[Mankcam]

That sort of thing is why I don't think Fate and PbtA belong in the same "conceptual bucket". In the case of a PbtA game, if you're not using a readymade game, I think you need to have a stronger idea of what you want your campaign to be about and the types of characters in it, because there is so much extra work to do before you start playing (Writing the playbooks, especially) and all the PbtA framework really gives you is "miss, partial, hit, remember the fiction".

You raise some good points about Fate being put in the same grouping as PbtA, as I feel that PbtA is it's own thing. Definately not as loose as Fate, in fact very rigid with the Playbook concepts tailored for a specific setting. I think that this is a great approach for Convention play and one-shot sessions, although I don't think my group for get alot of milage from that for various campaigns, they love being a bit more free-form. Horses for Courses. Not dishing PbtA at all however, I would still love to play a few sessions to try it out and see how it rolls.

 

[Mankcam]

If Fate is an adaptable toolkit and a set of essays, PbtA is a guide to drawing an owl.

BTW I love this analogy, heh heh

 

[Mankcam]

Heroquest is theme-agnostic, something more or less anathema to PbtA. So, I don't get the comparison. Edit: I would say Pendragon is a better comparison, Mankcam.

Yes I totally see where you are coming from. Yet one of the first things I thought when i stumbled across Blades In The Dark was that I thought it was a touch Fate-ish and a bit HQ-ish in places, I'm not sure why. It's much more rigid/tighter than both. Perhaps it was just that I played Hero Wars (which later became Hero Quest) almost 20yrs ago, so it's hard for many things to actually be novel after that, but something connected PbtA to it, I will have to ponder how I made that connection...

 

[Mankcam]

As someone who generally doesn't like what the PbtA game people put out, I am very enamored of Blades in the Dark. I never felt like the system was working against me, and the game feel flexible enough to allow your character to develop how you want and not by soem forced track. I've had a ton of fun and I'm hoping the derailed game manages to get back on track.

At the end of the day, having a ton of fun is really what any of this is about. Any rpg system that achieves that result is a good experience in my book

 

[Voros]

You raise some good points about Fate being put in the same grouping as PbtA, as I feel that PbtA is it's own thing. Definately not as loose as Fate, in fact very rigid with the Playbook concepts tailored for a specific setting. I think that this is a great approach for Convention play and one-shot sessions, although I don't think my group for get alot of milage from that for various campaigns, they love being a bit more free-form. Horses for Courses. Not dishing PbtA at all however, I would still love to play a few sessions to try it out and see how it rolls.

One thing is each PbtA game really is its own thing, often with very significant changes in the mechanics or playstyle. So it is hard to generalize. Just because someone disliked Monsterhearts doesn't mean they wouldn't like The 'Hood. Undying is significantly different than Bluebeard's Bride etc. Best to approach each game on its own terms rather than as representative of PbtA per se.

 

[Lessa]

Previously:
Dungeon World 1
Dungeon World 2
Apocalypse World 1
Apocalypse World 2

Lol even as a fan of the game, I admit that was hillarious.

Jeff Gameblog ran the wrestling PTA game for us recently, world class wrestling.

Wrestling was fun but the system really was kind of a pain. In a trad game every second of your game is potentially towards or away from some failure condition or progress condition, so every second counts. Whereas in pbta you can kinda describe whatever you want but....it doesn't really matter

Interesting. I never read or played World Wide Wrestling but I've heard it is more about the drama between fighters than the actual fights, which reminded me of that hilarious South Park episode where the kids create their own Wrestling show resembling a Mexican soap opera.

I'll try to read it.

 

[Mankcam]

Previously:
Dungeon World 1
Dungeon World 2
Apocalypse World 1
Apocalypse World 2

I only had time to read your first two Dungeon World blogs (I will read the Apocalypse World ones soon).
I can see some of that going down like a brick ballon in a thunderbox, but hey, it's a blog, not a public forum, so it it works.

It was getting hilarious into a lead-boots-in-water situation regarding the char gen process which comes across ultra-rigid to the point of ridiculous (choose a name 'from the list' etc). The 'Load 18 reference to your movie' was pretty funny, I almost spluttered up my takaway coffee with that, heh heh

In all honesty, I can see this kind of setting-tailoring working well for conventions and one-shots, but it's definately not free-form for how I roll with most of my games. My troupe would probably dish it from the outset, those inflexible buggas heh heh

I'm certainly not anti-storygame (ugh I bloody hate that term), but I don't like straight-jacketing in my games, so the more free-form the better (ie when it comes to D&D, I disliked the D&D 3E and 4E era, but don't mind 5E and the old B/X D&D era). There are many 'traditional' games that are rigid, so it's not a 'storygame' thing, but perhaps the Playbook approach won't suit the looseness of how I like things in terms of char gen.

Thanks for your blog links, good idea, because if someone doesn't like what they read then they don't need to follow the links any further, it saves all the shrapenel that sometimes erupts. I'm just one of those 'anything-for-an-easier-day' type of guys

I have to get back to work now, but will check on those Apocalpse World blogs later on. It's quite an entertaining way to get another viewpoint, and it's given me a chuckle (which is better than anything else that is happening in my 'real-world job' at present...). Plus you do get your point across quite well.

You have a sharp wit, it can cut but yeah that was a fucken funny read to start my work day

 

[Mankcam]

Best to approach each game on its own terms rather than as representative of PbtA per se.

Actually I think that sounds like pretty good advice

 

[AsenRG]

1. John Harper wrote the Ur-story games Primetime Adventures (irony! commercial breaks!) and Lady Blackbird (easy to learn! no reason to learn it!) and trolls all the right people. If he writes it, the entire indie scene pays attention.

2. It's kind of like Apocalypse World but kind of not! Since the indie scene is, in theory, obsessed with theory, but in practice hasn't got enough smart people in it to discuss any real issues, the question of "Is Blades truly Powered By The Apocalypse?" consumed them for a year or so as it was about the level of question they could handle (no real answer, lots of opportunity for we're-all-gamers-here platitudes).

3. The current trend in storygames is: "very close to what a traditional game does (violence, action, missions, fantastic setting) but using PTA instead of a system where you don't have a move list" and doesn't in any way feel like it tests you on how smart you are so gives you no opportunity to fail at anything except rolling dice.

4. Evil Hat, who produce Fate, realized they have literally nobody you could even make an argument is creative working at their company so they distributed Blades for Harper and put all their Evil Hat money behind the push including banner ads at EnWorld and maybe rpgnet.

5. Pretty much everything else Evil Hat has done lately has completely tanked, so they doubled down on pushing Blades.

6. Wooo steampunk.

Previously:
Dungeon World 1
Dungeon World 2
Apocalypse World 1
Apocalypse World 2

Those are great examples of your unbiased opinion-sharing!
But at least you (usually) manage to make the hate-fest entertaining. Which is more than what I can say about some other haters, hence me liking both of those posts.

BTW, a real game about pro-wrasslin' should have fixed matches, I'm not sure how you could get around that requirement. Which means that you should treat the actual show more as a resource management exercise and not touch the combat system.
You should probably have a combat system, though, just in case the stars of your show get into an unscripted drunken brawl or something.

 

[PolarBlues]

drawing an owl.

Nothing to say about the ongoing conversation but that "How to draw an owl" guide is the funniest thing I've seen in a while. Made my day.

 

[Lessa]

Haha indeed, that Owl is awesome.

Have someone read or played Cartel yet? It's about Mexican drug lords narcofiction (Narcos, Sicario, etc) and looks neat af:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/marktruman/cartel-a-mexican-narcofiction-tabletop-roleplaying

If your takeaway is "I'll try to read it" you took the wrong message away.

It's not good. It doesn't really support any backstage drama even though it wants to be about that and the set up of the system is such that half the players are waiting out the game half the time. And the art's bad.

What are the incentives for the drama it? I've read somewhere the main thing is pleasing your audience with dramatic shows and not really winning the fights?

About players waiting for others, this is assumed in a lot of PbtA games, as most favor character-driven/broken party rather than "adventuring party"- play. So this isn't really a deterrent imo (except if it makes the wait overly long for some reason).

 

[Ladybird]

BTW, a real game about pro-wrasslin' should have fixed matches, I'm not sure how you could get around that requirement. Which means that you should treat the actual show more as a resource management exercise and not touch the combat system.

I've always found it quite ironic that the only time pro wrestling is "real" is when it's a game.

 

[Nobby-W]

Can you tell me more about these two games? I think my local game store has both in stock and I haven't been able to decide if I should buy them or not.

They're really designed to play heist adventures through a flashback mechanic. Think: Ocean's Eleven, the Role Playing Game. It was notable for having a very successful kickstarter. Really, the system's key mcguffin is the flashbacks.

The flashback mechanic lets you take the flow of play at some point (for example, if you encounter a guard) and role play some previous event when you did something to work around the obstacle, essentially retconning history in a flashback (for example bribing the guard or doing something to distract the guards). There is a stress track that limits you from doing this too much. The idea is that the DM can prep the adventure with some obstacles and then the party can run the heist and retcon the preparation they did to get around those obstacles. It's very much aimed at a collaborative storytelling style of play.

That's really the system's key gimmick, and it's done quite well. The original (Blades in the Dark) was done in a steampunk urban fantasy type of setting but the intention was that the system could be skinned for different settings, of which Scum and Villainy is the only one that has been released so far. For my money, the obvious candidate for a skin of the system would be a cyberpunk setting.

Disclaimer: I think it's quite a neat idea and have Scum and Villainy, but haven't gotten around to playing it yet. I've got a half-prepped space opera setting that I'm planning to run with FATE, and I might actually lift that mechanic and transplant it onto FATE - you could probably do something with FATE points and add a work related mental stress track to power it.

If the approach does it for you then the chances are your group might enjoy the game. The system is essentially the same across both games, so it's down to a preference for urban fantasy vs. space opera.

 

[Voros]

Haha indeed, that Owl is awesome.

Have someone read or played Cartel yet? It's about Mexican drug lords narcofiction (Narcos, Sicario, etc) and looks neat af:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/marktruman/cartel-a-mexican-narcofiction-tabletop-roleplaying

I’ve read the quickstart and will be getting the pdf from the KS. The system seems solid, more cinematic than gritty. I think the setting material is what will make up my mind on it. That it is designed by Mark Diaz Truman who did the excellent Urban Shadows gives me some confidence that he will do a good job.

 

[Lessa]

Z Zak Smith , it seems PbtA is not really for you, bro. A pity, as I'd love to see your art in some PbtA project.

I’ve read the quickstart and will be getting the pdf from the KS. The system seems solid, more cinematic than gritty. I think the setting material is what will make up my mind on it. That it is designed by Mark Diaz Truman who did the excellent Urban Shadows gives me some confidence that he will do a good job.

Yep, emphasis mine. This is such a sensitive matter (drug trafficking) that it all depends on how it's treated. I hope it ends up nice because from the little I've seen, it has some neat mechanical bits. And I'm a big fan of movies like Sicario and Scarface.

 

[TristramEvans]

One of my favourites

 

[Edgewise]

They're really designed to play heist adventures through a flashback mechanic. Think: Ocean's Eleven, the Role Playing Game. It was notable for having a very successful kickstarter. Really, the system's key mcguffin is the flashbacks.

At the center of Blades in the Dark is another mechanic that's actually more important than the retconned flashbacks, and that's what the game calls "clocks." This is a term for something I've seen in a number of other highly-abstracted games like Heroquest and the Index Card RPG, although Blades makes it a more central feature.

Clocks are basically like HP for events, representing accumulating effort or danger. A very common kind of clock would be an alert clock. Every time you screw something up during a heist, this clock would go up one tick, and when it reaches midnight, the guards give hue and cry and run around with lanterns.

The reason that this mechanic is so important is because it makes it even easier for the group to jump into a heist. The retcon flashbacks simplify planning for the players, but the clock simplifies planning for the GM, which is arguably more important.

These are all very good ideas if your objective is to make a heist-driven RPG where players and GM can start playing with almost zero prep. Let's not lie: that's quite a feat, if you think about it. The problem for me is that it removes almost all opportunities for cleverness and surprise from the players and turns them into die rolls. If you think planning a heist and watching your plan fall apart is the fun part, then you will find this game incredibly dissatisfying.

I think this really highlights why I am not a fan of storygames. They put all the emphasis on collaborative storytelling, but player discovery is replaced with player invention, and mental challenges are replaced with dice challenges. If generating a story is your favorite part of role-playing, then storygames are your jam. But if you enjoy surprise and challenge, they fall completely flat.

BTW, a real game about pro-wrasslin' should have fixed matches, I'm not sure how you could get around that requirement. Which means that you should treat the actual show more as a resource management exercise and not touch the combat system.

If I was running a pro-wrestling RPG, I'd have it happen in an alternate reality where pro-wrestling is real. Also, the pro-wrestlers would have super-powers, and occasionally be challenged to grapple aliens for the fate of the Earth.

​

 

[Lessa]

Blades' Countdown Clocks came from Apocalypse World, Edgewise . And Flashbacks came from Leverage Rpg, if I ain't mistaken.

I think this really highlights why I am not a fan of storygames. They put all the emphasis on collaborative storytelling, but player discover is replaced with player invention, and mental challenges are replaced with dice challenges. If generating a story is your favorite part of role-playing, then storygames are your jam. But if you enjoy surprise and challenge, they fall completely flat.

Hmm I find preparedness is still a factor through gear choice, info gathering, contacts selection, crew assets, etc. And the surprise is there in the form of each faction traits and agenda (The Three Sisters manor will offer a very different "reception" for the crew than the Whalers hideout, for e.g.). Also, Flashbacks do not happen all that often and most times the crew will deal with obstacles through problem-solving and/or skill checks.

So it's not like these factors simply vanish from the experience. Though I agree it's not on par with a full simulation-focused mission as per Shadowrun or D&D5, if you like that kind of thing.

 

[Mankcam]

Theres something a bit sappy in this term Storygame. I cant put my finger on it, but it feels like a clumsy title.

I'm actually not sure the distinction between storygames and traditional games is anywhere as strong as often suggested in rpg academia discussions.

Both usually only advise for dice rolls to heighten the drama, so not all the bells and whistles need to be used everytime. Its up to a GM if dice rolling is a regular thing for every action, or if it is an intermittent thing reserved only for dramatic scenes. Depends on how things are going at the table I reckon.

Player discovery can be just as big in a 'storygame' as it can be in a trad rpg, just like the 'narrative' emphasis can be just as big in a trad rpg as it is in a storygame rpg. The whole notion of 'player-facing' and 'story-pacing' can be mixed on a scene by scene basis if you like.

Things like Scene Clocks and Scene HP can be used if it works well for that scene, but dont have to be in place everytime, a lot of stuff can be handwaved. Having those dials certainly doesnt mean they need to be used all the time.

I do see particular designers aiming for their schticks in particular games, but the reality is that many people will cherry-pick things they like from various games and throw it on a chassis that they like.

For example, the Flashback mechanic of Blades could work well with any system as a novelty mechanic. I may port it to Fate Core, but I could also use it with BRP. Too much use of it will likely wear out its welcome however.

Its all a melting pot of creative ideas at the end of the day. Some drive story momentum, some drive player agency, and I think mixing both is quite fun.

I understand some games have a particular focus, but making it seem like there are lines in the sand with these things is unhelpful.

At the end of the day someone like me cherry-picks cool things from different games and blends it at the gaming table. I'm certainly not alone in that

 

[Endless Flight]

I keep thinking Blades might be able to be hacked into a G.I.Joe game with special missions in lieu of heists. I'd have to look at my copy again and see if it could work.

 

[Edgewise]

Blades' Countdown Clocks came from Apocalypse World, Edgewise . And Flashbacks came from Leverage Rpg, if I ain't mistaken.

I don't know enough about AW yet but I'll assume you're correct, and I do know Leverage but was unaware that Blades was inspired by it. But regardless of questions of origination, my point is that these are essential mechanics for zero-prep heisting, but together they remove a lot of tactical considerations from the players' hands.