The Martial Arts Thread

[MoonHunter]

I do love the Spanish styles. These are not elegant or flashy, but effective in their go.

 

[AsenRG]

I do love the Spanish styles. These are not elegant or flashy, but effective in their go.

Likewise!

 

[Alai]

I do not know if Capoeira counts or if we have New World MA?

I know that some people are a little touchy about "HEMA" as a term, and as a category, for the reasons this touches on. We're including this whole grab-bag of different styles, why is their 'Europeanness' what's important and definitional? And when it comes to style that are blends of elements from different continents -- which is a lot of them, if you look into the history to any extent -- where does that leave those?

 

[AsenRG]

I know that some people are a little touchy about "HEMA" as a term, and as a category, for the reasons this touches on. We're including this whole grab-bag of different styles, why is their 'Europeanness' what's important and definitional?

Because it's part of the name?

And when it comes to style that are blends of elements from different continents -- which is a lot of them, if you look into the history to any extent -- where does that leave those?

Beats me, honestly...

 

[Voros]

Okay moving this over here from another thread, I'm wondering if these moves are still, or were ever, legal in MMA.

For simplicity sake we can keep it to the UFC but if anyone knows the differences between leagues or whatever they call them in MMA let me know:

- Headstomps when the opponent is on the ground

- Rabbit punches

- Knees to the head or kidneys

- Choking an opponent out

 

[Alai]

Okay moving this over here from another thread, I'm wondering if these moves are still, or were ever, legal in MMA.

Chokes are pretty consistently legal. They're not super-safe to be doing in RL, but the theory is that in MMA there's a ref that'll stop it the sec there's a LoC, medics on tap, etc. Knees to the (front of the) head would be fine in some configs, but back-of-target strikes and strikes to a grounded target, nope. I'm sure there's a fancier case analysis of which things were legal when and where, but I think that's the general picture.

 

[Voros]

Chokes are pretty consistently legal. They're not super-safe to be doing in RL, but the theory is that in MMA there's a ref that'll stop it the sec there's a LoC, medics on tap, etc. Knees to the (front of the) head would be fine in some configs, but back-of-target strikes and strikes to a grounded target, nope. I'm sure there's a fancier case analysis of which things were legal when and where, but I think that's the general picture.

I was 'accidentally' choked out by a friend as a teen. Would not recommend. I eventually got mine back when I punched him in the throat a bit later. Also would not recommend.

 

[Alai]

I was 'accidentally' choked out by a friend as a teen. Would not recommend. I eventually got mine back when I punched him in the throat a bit later. Also would not recommend.

That's a DQ for you, and a 'maybe not while roughhousing' for fren!

 

[AsenRG]

Guys, I have an announcement to make:

First Son participated in his first BJJ competition. (There were 430 participants in total on Sofia Open, but sorry, I'm only going to talk about his match).

His "roll" is best described as "he kinda-pulled guard, kinda-got thrown, and didn't manage to get out from underneath", with predictable results...
We should totally talk with him about the advantages of getting a dominant position from the start!

I'm not quite sure how I feel about him even getting a bronze medal for that, but hey, there were 4 kids in that category! (I think I'm mostly happy, he would have taken it worse if there wasn't any medal).

This may be better in the martial arts thread but are headstomps legal in MMA?

I hope so, as a boxing fan watching some of those 'moves' is really uncomfortable to watch.

Edited to add: Okay, read the Vice article which was pretty good and seems to suggest it's banned in the subtitle but oddly doesn't seem to address that in the body of the text?

They're no longer legal, but the picture is from the time when they were. Remember, the first vale tudo matches had two rules, prohibiting I think eye-gouging and biting.

Wanderlei Silva, the young guy who's doing the stomping in the picture, is nearing retirement now. Actually he did retire from MMA in 2022, but expressed interest in doing boxing, and I think even had a match or two...

Okay moving this over here from another thread, I'm wondering if these moves are still, or were ever, legal in MMA.

For simplicity sake we can keep it to the UFC but if anyone knows the differences between leagues or whatever they call them in MMA let me know:

- Headstomps when the opponent is on the ground

- Rabbit punches

- Knees to the head or kidneys

- Choking an opponent out

All of the above used to be legal.

Head stomps and rabbit punches no longer are, by the "unified MMA rules".

Knees are forbidden on the ground. In standing, they're not, nor are they likely to be forbidden, ever. That said, I think knees in the kidneys aren't permitted in amateur-level MMA, but don't quote me, I might be totally wrong.

Choking has always been legal, and is never even likely to become illegal in MMA....nor should it, IMO. It would be akin to forbidding punches to the head for safety reasons. Those are, after all, things that we know cause brain damage, and there's no way to "stop" the damage, because it happens in an instant, too fast for the Ref to interfere.
Choking is basically the safe option in comparison. Yes, it can cause brain damage as well, but then it takes time, during which a third party can stop it.

Actually, they've been learning how to do some chokes standing.

I was 'accidentally' choked out by a friend as a teen. Would not recommend. I eventually got mine back when I punched him in the throat a bit later. Also would not recommend.

I also wouldn't recommend either, when roughhousing with friends. There's a reason why we keep telling students to not practice any submissions without supervision by a qualified instructor (who should stop it, and knows how to apply first aid if necessary).

OTOH, in the thread we were talking about dealing with a villain - and in the movies, those tend to be murderers, rapists, and similar.
So all those moves that you feel are "uncomfortable to watch" should be prioritised against such opponents. You manage to take the villain down? You should never, ever allow him to get up!

Basically, all the moves that are forbidden should always be a priority. Get a permitted move when you can't get a banned one. Punch him in the chin when you don't manage to land the punch on the throat.
But your goal against such enemies is to cause maximum damage. Because against a murderous criminal, if you lose, you might very well die.

Except, in the movies, the protagonist allows the criminal to get up.
And in the criminal chronicle such cases tend to be known as "murders".

 

[AsenRG]

Oh yeah, specifically but not exclusively for Voros
But everyone is asked to answer the question at the end!

https://www.abcboxing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/unified-rules-mma-2019.pdf

Most competitions use some variant of that, although many people believe that the authors simply don't have a good understanding of the sport of MMA. However, with some variations, it's a nice basis, and IMO, a better basis for self-defense than most other competitions.

However, the One Fighting Championship allows stomping a downed opponent, just not on the head (and throat, obviously). Body and limbs are fair game, though.

They still don't allow 12-6 elbows, though.


Personally, I find the One FC option to be a better compromise, personally, for not "requiring" strikers to either go to the ground, or give an opponent time to recover from a knock down.
I mean, in MMA you can buy time by simply throwing your legs up and towards your opponent (it's called "open guard") and the ref won't, probably, start counting. If the opponent refuses to engage*, and you don't get up, the ref might start counting a KO...but all of this is time.
After getting KDed, time is exactly what you need.

*Reasonable behaviour against a possibly better grappler. Getting swept from open guard and armbarred is never going to be fun.


...hey, guys, today we're obviously considering the reasons stomping is illegal: because it breaks bones.
That's also why it should be used by PCs and NPCs alike. Most of their fights don't have rules, RPGs like Contenders aside...

Can we examine the prohibited actions under Unified MMA rules one by one and explain why, in our opinion, it's a good/bad rule for MMA, and whether PCs would be doing this in a session?

 

[Voros]

In fiction I have no issue watching any moves, I'm a big fan of HK, Thai and Korean action films of course. In real life though from decades of watching boxing I've come to wince when seeing a rabbit punch and similar moves that can cause serious damage.

I mean, of course boxing and other professional combat sports are dangerous but what I value in them are how the rules give a structure and even grace to the fighting. One reason I'm not a MMA fan is because the mixed nature of the sport makes it less aesthetically appealing to me than wrestling and boxing for example.

For rpgs, I wonder if anyone has written martial arts rules that reflect the influence of Thai martial arts films, which imo stand out from other films in the genre due to the extreme acrobatic moves and plenty of elbows and knee strikes.

 

[AsenRG]

In fiction I have no issue watching any moves, I'm a big fan of HK, Thai and Korean action films of course. In real life though from decades of watching boxing I've come to wince when seeing a rabbit punch and similar moves that can cause serious damage.

OK, fully reasonable as a life stance!

I mean, of course boxing and other professional combat sports are dangerous but what I value in them are how the rules give a structure and even grace to the fighting. One reason I'm not a MMA fan is because the mixed nature of the sport makes it less aesthetically appealing to me than wrestling and boxing for example.

...that one, however, I don't understand. The MMA fighting has a lot of structure, maybe it's just not the kind that you're used to predicting?

For rpgs, I wonder if anyone has written martial arts rules that reflect the influence of Thai martial arts films, which imo stand out from other films in the genre due to the extreme acrobatic moves and plenty of elbows and knee strikes.

I'm not sure how useful it would be to have specific rules for those...bet you didn't expect to read that in my post!

Acrobatics do several things, like allowing you to get out of a bad situation, allowing you to get the desired height elevation, and allowing you to drop your weight into your attack, getting you out of nasty falls... But do we really need rules for that?
I mean, you have Acrobatics as a skill in Mythras allowing you to do the defensive part, and I'd allow using it for getting out of grapples as well, but I don't know if you're asking for that.
It would certainly work in GURPS as well, I suspect. But I'm not sure what the rules for that were.

Likewise, knees and elbows are simply shorter-range attacks, albeit very powerful. Again, do we need special rules for that? Most RPGs don't really distinguish between the punch zone of boxing, and the knee and elbow zone (which no, doesn't need to be used during a clinch).


And I say that as someone who loves knees and elbows, BTW.

...though if there's such a ruleset, I'm all ears!