Can we now admit the new 7th Sea is floundering?

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Shipyard Locked said:
Oh man, L5R is the cat's meow. I especially appreciated how the interwoven factions, subfactions, and conflicts meant that the plots just wrote themselves. It was also much easier for players to grok than an actual Japan game, and the lethality of combat ensured a lot of tense lateral thinking to avoid it until absolutely necessary. Later editions added courtiers as a 'class' and made combat-free runs a fun subgoal. Great memories.
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It's funny with L5R, Most people seem to think 4th is the best iteration of the game. And yet, I find it to be a cluttered mess with some truly dreadful writing and the wrong sacred cows having been killed.

There's no accounting for taste :grin:

Edit: Oh, courtiers. They came in in 1st edition. Way of the Crane gave us the (broken) Doji Courtier. And Way of the Scorpion gave us the (ridiculously powerful) Bayushi Courtier. There were others, but they tended to the odd and pretty useless. Those two stood head and shoulders above the pack.

Shame there are, nor have there ever been, anything resembling coherent social rules in L5R.
 
noman said:
I'd like to take this opportunity to write that if anyone's thinking about kicking caffeine, don't. Seriously. Unless you're crystal clear on why you're doing it, just enjoy the tea and coffee. They're delicious.

It took me a year for it to work it's way out of my system. Ever been around a lifelong smoker that's going cold turkey? That was me. I don't know how anyone managed to stand being around me. I was a crabby, withdrawing, donkey bitch.
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I used to worship at caffeine's altar, but I was told several months ago by my doctor that I had to eliminate all foods high in fat, all caffeine, and all citrus from my diet in order to stave off cancer. Let me tell you, that was not and has not been an easy transition. Now I mostly drink water and decaffeinated green tea. Getting old sucks.
 
Apparition said:
I used to worship at caffeine's altar, but I was told several months ago by my doctor that I had to eliminate all foods high in fat, all caffeine, and all citrus from my diet in order to stave off cancer. Let me tell you, that was not and has not been an easy transition. Now I mostly drink water and decaffeinated green tea. Getting old sucks.
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I, my lungs, back, stomach and overall body hear you brother.

I hope it's at least having a positive effect.
 
Apparition said:
I used to worship at caffeine's altar, but I was told several months ago by my doctor that I had to eliminate all foods high in fat, all caffeine, and all citrus from my diet in order to stave off cancer. Let me tell you, that was not and has not been an easy transition. Now I mostly drink water and decaffeinated green tea. Getting old sucks.
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Doctors will tell you, live live like there's no such thing as pleasure. But I can say, being married to a wife with end stage kidney failure, I feel your pain.
 
I had to quit caffeine for health reasons when I was around 30. I went through headaches, but it was manageable. Maybe because I have always gotten migraines, it made it easier. Maybe it was because the digestive problems I was getting from caffeine were more painful than the headaches.

I drank a lot of pop when I was kid, so I developed an addiction early. When I quit, it was strange to encounter my natural biochemical state for the first time in my adult life. I wasn't quite as a jittery and tense a person as I thought. I had just been taking stimulants for over 20 years straight. I'd sleep really well at night. I'd wake up in the morning and feel refreshed rather than aching for a cup of coffee. It seemed like energy I had been getting from coffee had ultimately been leaving me more run down.

Still, I missed coffee when I was writing. Once I got my digestive issues under control, I went back to coffee. I am unsure it was the best choice, but here I am.
 
I'm bad with caffeine. I've joked many times I can fall asleep with a can of Mountain Dew in my hand. My wife has told me I should really cut back on things now that I'm in my 40s and I cant really disagree. It's just hard to stop.
 
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Stevethulhu said:
... and the wrong sacred cows having been killed.
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Oh? Which ones?

Stevethulhu said:
Edit: Oh, courtiers. They came in in 1st edition.
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Oh, right, they showed up earlier than I remember. The only 'Way' book I have left is the Way of the Phoenix (not even my favorite, but it was my clan from the CCG so *shrug*) and that one didn't have the decency to include a courtier school.
 
All I'll say about anchovies is that the implements that touch anchovies are quarantined from other implements because dang, anchovies are gross.
 
Belle Sorciere said:
All I'll say about anchovies is that the implements that touch anchovies are quarantined from other implements because dang, anchovies are gross.
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Never mind how sausages, or cheese, or diet soda get made... some of these processes will make anchovies look positively tame.
 
Shipyard Locked said:
Oh? Which ones?
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Off the top of my head.

They changed the duelling minigame into something that meant that rather than having to build around two traits and three rings (which were different from the ones a battlefield bushi would need), all you need is Void and Awareness. And they stripped it back to three rolls. meaning that Luck becomes inordinately powerful for duellists.

They rolled back mass combat into a chart where you take random damage each turn. A lot of random damage. Like enough to kill a reasonably tough or Mass Battle optimised character in two or three Battle Turns.

Mechanical balance between shugenja and non shugenja is now non existent. Shugenja can break the game by accident in 4th edition, instead of having to work hard at it like they did in 3rd.

Bayushi 5 got changed from the Technique that had been there since 1st edition into something that felt like a rank 3 ability.

They declared that multiple attacks was too powerful, then gave characters multiple attacks under a different name.

Almost all incentives to increase your skills were removed. In particular the Insight bonus and Free Raise for a skill at 5 that were Mastery abilities for all skills was scrubbed in favour of each skill only having it's own specific bonuses.

They kept with the design format where NPCs are built to a power level that no PC made by playing the game as presented will ever reach.

Emphases went from being a nice little bonus that was dependent on how good you were in a given skill to being a reroll that didn't really push the odds on a given roll that much higher.

And that's just off the top of my head.
 
I'm in my late forties and enjoy my couple cups of coffee a day just fine. Not a soda or sugar-heavy diet but otherwise I'm perfectly fine eating what I eat. It seems doctors here are far less prone to tell you to change your diet for vague generic reasons.
 
The Butcher said:
Never mind how sausages, or cheese, or diet soda get made... some of these processes will make anchovies look positively tame.
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Except for diet sodas, the end result is edible and tasty. Unlike anchovies. :grin:

I mean, say what you will about sausage or cheese is made - they don't have to be quarantined away from other food to avoid tainting it.
 
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Belle Sorciere said:
Except for diet sodas, the end result is edible and tasty. Unlike anchovies. :grin:

I mean, say what you will about sausage or cheese is made - they don't have to be quarantined away from other food to avoid tainting it.
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History has denied us the opportunity to taste Roman garum (a fish sauce whose production, by all accounts, was just as vile, and that they put on everything). Anchovies are the next best thing.

Anchovy butter on toast and a glass of scotch. Mmm.
 
RPG PUB: We talk about our health problems and dietary habits in the 7th Seas thread.
Since We're on the subject of anchovies: http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/2016/10/07/anchovy-sandwiches/

Now, back on topic:
I tried the new 7th seas, imho Wick has sorely misunderstood wich parts of the setting and of the rules HE should have reworked. Now, I like the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth as much as any history geek, but It's lack in 7thS never was as felt in the setting's dynamics as, bluntly, Portugal's (how am I supposed to play in the "age of colonization" without a portugal-analog?). Rules wise all the powerplayers I have seen in this game were trying to make a viable character despite the horrible limitations of character generation; so it made no sense that They'd make character generation even more rigid.
In the end the problem with 7S is... the people who worked on it. I Have no doubt that If or when someone new gets the rights we'll have a good game worthy of many lenghty campaigns.
 
Johnny Blade said:
RPG PUB: We talk about our health problems and dietary habits in the 7th Seas thread.
Since We're on the subject of anchovies: http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/2016/10/07/anchovy-sandwiches/
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Yes, we do. :smile:

Médoc and anchovies strike me as a peculiar pairing. If I was going with wine, I'd
Robably reach for fino Jerez, or maybe a bone-dry Riesling (dry Riesling being the ultimate wild card of food pairing). Still, if it got him writing, it can't be bad. ;)

Though I sustain that an Islay malt would likely fare better.
 
The Butcher said:
Yes, we do. :smile:

Médoc and anchovies strike me as a peculiar pairing. If I was going with wine, I'd
Robably reach for fino Jerez, or maybe a bone-dry Riesling (dry Riesling being the ultimate wild card of food pairing). Still, if it got him writing, it can't be bad. ;)

Though I sustain that an Islay malt would likely fare better.
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There's a curious formatting error on your post by my side: before quoting it I saw it end abrubtly at "Though I". Curious. Good tastes in wines btw: I appreciate the Riesling's versatility and living in Spain atm I had the occasion to appreciate their "sherry". Whisky is the Wise man's Key but wouldn't it be a little to harsh paired with anchovy sandwiches?
 
Johnny Blade said:
RPG PUB: We talk about our health problems and dietary habits in the 7th Seas thread.
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I was the one that started the anchovy derailment and discussion of food in general. Rather than apologize I will make the argument that discussion of seafood is entirely on topic for a game called 7th Sea. Now in the spirit of anchovy appreciation, I will prepare my Saturday morning eggs and douse them with with Worcestershire sauce.

Rules wise all the powerplayers I have seen in this game were trying to make a viable character despite the horrible limitations of character generation; so it made no sense that They'd make character generation even more rigid.
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That's an interesting complaint about Wick. It lines up with my feelings L5Rs character generation. It was too limited, but the characters were too specific. To contrast, I like D&D B/X, and I am fine playing its version of "fighter" or "elf". There isn't much in the way of options, but the archetypes are broad. With L5R, you had to pick from a list of very specific archetypes, which is less fun to me.
 
Johnny Blade said:
I tried the new 7th seas, imho Wick has sorely misunderstood wich parts of the setting and of the rules HE should have reworked.
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I don't want this to turn back into full bore John Wick bashing. His work has given me hours of joy and I will always be grateful. That said....

My humble read on him, his online posting and how 7th Sea 2e turned out was that he was absolutely sure he was about to revolutionize tabletop RPGs with his brilliant ideas*. Ideas that would finally bury all that antiquated D&D stuff. These ideas just needed a popular vehicle to make everyone take notice. Getting the rights to 7th Sea back under his total control must have looked like a sign from on high, and the giant success of the kickstarter must have only confirmed that feeling (never mind that most of that money rolled in before the radical nature of the rules became apparent). Flush with so much perceived confirmation of his righteous path, it must have been easy to overlook the fact that most fans wanted a continuation of 7th Sea as it was generally understood, not a revolutionary Trojan horse.

I will agree with the sentiment that Wick's gaming instincts are not as sharp as they once were. Consider how poorly designed the new sorceries he added to the 2nd edition are, one (Hexenwerk) dull as dishwater and too hyper-specialized, the other (Sanderis) allows a player to nuke the setting and steal the spotlight in perpetuity at a moment's whim right out of the gate (seriously, the Wish spell has nothing on Sanderis). Consider how even the open minded fans of the current edition are deeply frustrated by the combat and dueling rules.

Wick strikes me as a man who is fundamentally frustrated by what the average RPG player actually is and needs, and thinks he can cajole them into 'better behavior' by feeding them weird hooks baited with what they think they want.

* Consider one of the more notorious exhibits of his recent thinking: http://johnwickpresents.com/games/game-designs/chess-is-not-an-rpg-the-illusion-of-game-balance/

Oh right, food tangent...

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Shipyard Locked said:
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It must be painful for John Wick to lose his googleablity to a movie like that. Thankfully, I remain the world's only Adam Baulderstone, real or imagined.

Wick strikes me as a man who is fundamentally frustrated by what the average RPG player actually is and needs, and thinks he can cajole them into 'better behavior' by feeding them weird hooks baited with what they think they want.

* Consider one of the more notorious exhibits of his recent thinking: http://johnwickpresents.com/games/game-designs/chess-is-not-an-rpg-the-illusion-of-game-balance/
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There is one sentence in that essay that backs up your point.
John Wick said:
When I first started designing roleplaying games, they appealed to me because they were kind of like writing a philosophy:
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He uses Pendragon as an example in this essay, and I think it sets up what Stafford does right and Wick does wrong. Pendragon is a game where you can play a noble, chivalrous knight, but if I want to play a lustful, greedy, vengeful knight, the game supports that well. And it should because that is an entirely valid, dramatic choice for a character in an Arthurian saga. With Legend of the Five Rings the book is so insistent on playing the right way. It doesn't matter that Asian drama is full of characters that don't adhere to correct behavior. When you play this game, you are to behave like a proper gentleman, or you are doing it wrong!

And the title of the essay tells us that chess is not an RPG, but that leads him to the following definition of RPGs.

roleplaying game: a game in which the players are rewarded for making choices
that are consistent with the character’s motivations or further the plot of the story.

Of course, most board games reward you for making choices consistent with your motivation. In Monopoly, I am rewarded for making money and bankrupting opponents. In Risk, I am rewarded for defeating enemy armies and seizing territory.

It's a definition better suited to board games where your motivations are clearly defined by the game, and less useful for an RPG where the players motivation is of their own invention.[/QUOTE]
 
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Shipyard Locked said:
I don't want this to turn back into full bore John Wick bashing.
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I didn't want to bash him, I just think he misunderstood what the market, his fans, his game needed.
I misunderstand things every day too, pointing it out doesn't mean "bashing" me. Actually If I'm humble enought I'll be grateful for being helped out or corrected when I misunderstand something.

That said: I'm not a regular reader of his blog but just by scrolling the article at half attention I understand What you mean.

Baulderstone said:
To contrast, I like D&D B/X, and I am fine playing its version of "fighter" or "elf". There isn't much in the way of options, but the archetypes are broad. With L5R, you had to pick from a list of very specific archetypes,which is less fun to me.
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Very true: the game since It's first edition has embraced the game design philosophy of "everything is forbidden except what's expicitly permitted" rather than the classic "everything is permitted except what's expicitly forbidden, do RULINGS to decide the latter".
Given the Great number of point-sink trap options, the narrowness of the archetype and the various tax-traits You more or less have to buy, building the character You have in your head has allways been a daunting task.
 
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Johnny Blade said:
I didn't want to bash him, I just think he misunderstood what the market, his fans, his game needed.
I misunderstand things every day too, pointing it out doesn't mean "bashing" me. Actually If I'm humble enought I'll be glad for being helped out or corrected when I misunderstand something.
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I'm not looking to bash the guy either. I just disagree with his opinions on RPGs. Considering he is the guy who says people who play D&D aren't playing a roleplaying game, I think he has to be okay with people being critical of his game designs in return.

Thinking of that and looking at again at his RPG definition...

roleplaying game: a game in which the players are rewarded for making choices
that are consistent with the character’s motivations or further the plot of the story.

Is there a purer expression of that than giving adventurers XP for the gold they loot?
 
Baulderstone said:
I'm not looking to bash the guy either. I just disagree with his opinions on RPGs. Considering he is the guy who says people who play D&D aren't playing a roleplaying game, I think he has to be okay with people being critical of his game designs in return.
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Oh yes on this we are in perfect agreement.
 
Does his definition of roleplaying games mean that games with no advancement mechanics are not roleplaying games?
 
Johnny Blade said:
It could be argued that "reward" is not a synonimous of "character advancement"; but in pratiche yes.
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Yeah, I considered things like hero points and bennies when I posted that, but I was trying to keep it simple for questions sake.
 
HorusArisen said:
I don't think anyone is really bashing John so much as just not agreeing with him on gaming.
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He's opinionated and I get the feeling some of the things he says, he doesn't always agree with. But he says them to get people talking. LIke a troll, but less personal.

I spent the latter part of the 90s and the first few years of the 2000s buying what he was selling. But when I read Play Dirty, and even more when I applied some of the advice, I kind of lost faith with John Wick. Got nothing against the guy, but his work just doesn't appeal to me the way it used to.
 
Shipyard Locked said:
A sidebar from the actual game:

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That is so reminiscent of John Wick's attitude to ninja in L5R. Here's this awesome thing that's really cool and has all kinds of neat abilities. That you can't have. And if your GM lets you get them, then everyone in the world can kill your character with no comebacks!
 
Shipyard Locked said:
* Consider one of the more notorious exhibits of his recent thinking: http://johnwickpresents.com/games/game-designs/chess-is-not-an-rpg-the-illusion-of-game-balance/
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Right up front, I've never really agreed with John Wick or liked his approach to RPGs. And I don't mean I hated L5R or 7th Sea (I never played either of them), I mean the stuff he's said on the internet, the stuff in his book on adversarial GMing, this blog post.

I think he's missing the point and defining RPG in reductive ways. He doesn't really support his notion that certain games can't be played without roleplaying, although he makes that claim of several. In my experience, that simply isn't true. People can not roleplay in just about any RPG context.

I also think he's missing the point of social mechanics, and I think that forcing players to roleplay everything and abandoning social mechanics is pretty wrongheaded. It's like saying you can't play a badass unless you're a master of some weapon or martial art. Roleplaying certainly plays a role in social situations (it would be silly if it didn't) but the rolls and social traits mean that players can play characters far more socially adept than they are.

Fundamentally, I wouldn't enjoy gaming with Wick, and I think his advice constitutes things one should never do in an RPG.

I like this response to Wick's post: http://millionwordman.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/on-why-we-need-game-balance-more-than.html
 
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Personally I think he's 100% right about game balance, and I've been saying it longer than he has. But I also don't care if anyone agrees with me.
 
daniel_ream said:
Personally I think he's 100% right about game balance, and I've been saying it longer than he has. But I also don't care if anyone agrees with me.
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His criticism ignores the fact that people want different things. If everyone in the world wanted exactly the same thing out of RPGs as John Wick and yet D&D was popular, that'd be inexplicable. But he'd actually have a valid point. But everyone doesn't want the same thing out of RPGs and what a lot of people want involves various kinds of game balance.

There's not a single right way to design or play games, as much as any particular person might want otherwise.
 
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