New edition of WH40K

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I'm confused how the card packs are going to work. I saw something saying they were going to be in bundles of 10? I guess I'll find out on Saturday.
 
Gabriel said:
I'm confused how the card packs are going to work. I saw something saying they were going to be in bundles of 10? I guess I'll find out on Saturday.
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lmao if 40k pulls a Changeling the Dreaming
 
Gabriel said:
I'm confused how the card packs are going to work. I saw something saying they were going to be in bundles of 10? I guess I'll find out on Saturday.
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I saw a comment about that, saying that the sets are being sold 10 packs in a box (to the retailer, not end user). Not positive that is the case, but sounds most likely. I also figure make sure you grab any you want me preorder goes up because probably won’t be available wisely after initial release.
 
List building is much simpler now. Units come with all options baked into the unit entry for the same cost. You are no longer able to run bare bones, stripped down cheap squads or tanks without sponsons.

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Squad upgrades that I previously never took like vox, standards, and medi-packs are free. Different special and heavy weapons all cost the same. I expect to see a lot of lascannons, power weapons, and plasma guns on the 10th edition battlefield since there's no reason not to take them.

I find it hard to find something to fill the last 20 or so points in a list. In previous editions you could just tack on some extra special weapons or vehicle options or something to make up the points.
 
I've caught 40k fever. I'm gearing up for a massive modelling and paint project to get my 9 year old 'Guard army up to 10th edition standards. It's gonna involve a lot of paint stripping, model breakdowns, and assembly. I may have settled on a new paint scheme for my 'Guard. Obviously I need to paint a test mini before I commit.

 
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AppleJax said:
We need more competitors to GW, but all other companies that tried (e.g. Rackham) went out of business due to useless antitrust laws.
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Rackham went out of business because they tried to shift from some of the most beautifully sculpted minis on the market at the time to awful pre-painted crap on the level of Heroscape/Heroclix. Never seen a minis company shoot themselves in the face so deliberately.
 
TristramEvans said:
Rackham went out of business because they tried to shift from some of the most beautifully sculpted minis on the market at the time to awful pre-painted crap on the level of Heroscape/Heroclix. Never seen a minis company shoot themselves in the face so deliberately.
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It was sad. They were determined to make it a big army game and very few people were playing it like that, opting for the smaller Confrontation skirmish game.

The latest game/miniature thing I see building attention is Conquest: Last Argument of Kings... which might have legs, not sure. I like the fluff and some of the figures (which are BIG).
 
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Brock Savage said:
I mentioned to an associate that I was getting back into 40k after a long break and they were like *gasp!* "GW has been screwing over their customers!" This person tends to frame everything they dislike in hyperbolic and hysterical terms so I'm guessing it's the following:
  • People who should have known better getting their fan projects shut down because GW has been vigorously defending their IP for decades.
  • High prices.
  • Army Book release schedules that screw certain armies and promote others.
  • Loosey-goosey rules written for a friendly beer and pretzels game that are ill-suited for for pedantic, hypercompetitive American nerds.
In other words, it's business as usual for GW and there's nothing really preventing me from getting back into the game, right?
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GW tends to screw over companies, FLGS's, and their own employees more than their customers, TBH. But your list of reasons there are more like someone's personal annoyances than the actual bullshit they've done over years. of which a simple google search will turn up pages and pages and pages.

But I will correct this part:
'because GW has been vigorously defending their IP for decades"
should more accurately be: "because GW has been aggressively attempting to claim other people's creations as their IP for decades"
 
AppleJax said:
Moonbreaker might change the market if it proves to be a viable competitor to 40k. I really want Games Workshop (and all other corpos) to get wrecked.
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When Moonbreaker starts opening predatory proprietary stores they might start to being on their way to developing into a viable competitor.
 
My own current thinking is that you'd want to get your games and figures into dollar stores. Admittedly this is a long term approach but what you want is kids buying your figures and your rules for next to nothing and then moving up to the bigger and better sets from hobby and gaming shops. Cut the knees right out from under them.
 
David Johansen said:
My own current thinking is that you'd want to get your games and figures into dollar stores. Admittedly this is a long term approach but what you want is kids buying your figures and your rules for next to nothing and then moving up to the bigger and better sets from hobby and gaming shops. Cut the knees right out from under them.
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the dollar stores near me carry packs of Heroclix, so i guess it's feasible. But short of a loss-leader strategy, i can't see many startups being able to price down minis like that. Personally I'd go with a miniatures-agnostic system.
 
TristramEvans said:
the dollar stores near me carry packs of Heroclix, so i guess it's feasible. But short of a loss-leader strategy, i can't see many startups being able to price down minis like that. Personally I'd go with a miniatures-agnostic system.
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Well, I'm guessing by Mr. Johansen's description they'd be lower quality figures... like those Russian Tehnolog things I run into once in a while.
 
TristramEvans said:
the dollar stores near me carry packs of Heroclix, so i guess it's feasible. But short of a loss-leader strategy, i can't see many startups being able to price down minis like that. Personally I'd go with a miniatures-agnostic system.
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The Big Problem is the same as with RPGs: There's a single company whose core product dominates public perception and the hobby.

It just isn't likely to be knocked out by a competitor by any means. Its only real competitor is itself and its own internal errors weakening it to the point of death.

Other games could feasibly do things in a similar vein in those areas/aspects not covered by the Big Gorilla Game. 'Clix did a couple of them successfully, so did the X-Wing series.

A bit more traditionally Battlefront and Warlord Games pulled off some wins in the historical gaming categories by taking parts of the GW formula and applying them successfully.

And, like RPGs there are absolutely rooms of indie/cottage industry games and house/club rules. Most of those are completely unknown to fans of The Big Gorilla, but once you tap into them (assuming you like them), a whole new world of possibilities opens up. Of course, it's a whole world that, as with RPGs, is scattered in fifty million different directions, but at that point, you're a miniatures gamer not a (System) gamer.

I think the trick, to some degree, is to look at what GW did to make itself a success with WH40K, to really look at the evolution of the rules, the culture around it, the evolution of the miniatures themselves, playstyle and also business strategy.

I think it's the last one, business strategy, that I think gives hobbyists (like me) a feeling of dealing with the Ickiness, but it's important.
 
DeadBob said:
The Big Problem is the same as with RPGs: There's a single company whose core product dominates public perception and the hobby.
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I dunno if i agree. GW is absolutely the almost unrivaled behemoth, but...they've never been synonymous with wargaming. D&D was the beginning of the RPG hobby, but Warhammer is a few centuries off. I'd say GW is more like...McDonalds.
 
TristramEvans said:
I dunno if i agree. GW is absolutely the almost unrivaled behemoth, but...they've never been synonymous with wargaming. D&D was the beginning of the RPG hobby, but Warhammer is a few centuries off. I'd say GW is more like...McDonalds.
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I can live with that comparison.
 
McDonalds but priced like The Keg. Well, I don't know, the miniatures are pretty good.

As for dollar stores. I'd either go for the one small sprue idea I had for Mutant Chronicles with four generic bodies, four different, force specific, heads guns, shoulder pads and backpacks. No duplicate gear. A simple rule booklet and unit cards. I'm not sure how many sprues you'd get. Ideally five so you could do four 10 man units but that probably gets you out of the dollar store range.

For fantasy, I'd go with something more like Grenadier's Fantasy Warriors. One sprue, two armies. Bow Guy, Sword Guy, Spear Guy. I'd probably want separate heads and weapons but that might eat up too much space on the sprue and I'd rather have a mounted option.

I've always liked the Heritage plastics, I had Wizard's Quest but I wish I'd gotten the Cleric and Woman Warrior and Dungeon Dwellers ones. Not hot stuff by today's standards but cheap. I could see doing a dungeon game that way. Fold out map, simple rule book.

Formatwise, I'm thinking you either need a generic box with a sticker or a bag. The bag would be cheaper so that's probably the way to go.

I had a dream once, long ago, where I was looking at a polybagged fantasy set in 1/72 which had a single page rule set that was also a full page ad in Dragon magazine.

One way to cut corners is polyethylene like toy soldiers are made from. It doesn't glue well and doesn't take paint well being almost as slick as Teflon. I've heard Krylon for plastic works on it but I've never gotten around to trying it myself. I'm not sure the economies of scale justify it though. If it costs half as much but the cost of your plastic is $0.02, you'd need to do a lot of figures before it made a significant difference.

The big issue with the dollar store plan is risk. To get the economies of scale right you'll need to sell millions. Which means you have to produce, warehouse and ship millions of units. Dollar stores offer really minimal margins.
 
David Johansen said:
One way to cut corners is polyethylene like toy soldiers are made from. It doesn't glue well and doesn't take paint well being almost as slick as Teflon. I've heard Krylon for plastic works on it but I've never gotten around to trying it myself. I'm not sure the economies of scale justify it though. If it costs half as much but the cost of your plastic is $0.02, you'd need to do a lot of figures before it made a significant difference.
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Krylon for Plastic (or some other brands that do the same) work fine, especially if you then do a The Dip or Army Painter quick shade as the combined wash 'n' seal.

I made some Armies in Plastic toy soldiers up for a nephew over twenty years ago. They were done by those methods and he treated them exactly the way you'd expect a under ten kid to treat toy soldiers ( throw them with other toys in a box for storage, hurl stuff at them for combat resolution, etc).

They still have almost all of their paint. I think I saw a couple bayonets that needing touching up when I visited his home before he headed off to college last fall.

I'm making up a set of Civil War soldiers the same way for a different nephew this weekend. I expect them to last just as long.

They definitely aren't as pretty as proper wargaming minis with proper attention shown to painting them. They're a step up ( a small one) from prepainted Clix or old Britains Deetail plastic and metal soldiers.

That aside, I think a better question is whether the goal is to expand awareness of minis gaming (and make some money on it) or to really challenge GW.

Those two things are a bit different. Not unrelated, but different.

It's worth considering that GW's success isn't just about making cool minis (and I have loved their minis throughout the evolution of 40K) and rules to go with them. It also ha a whole lot to do with tapping into some, well, a bit unpleasant aspects of psychology and buying/marketing.

Random packs (cards or minis) play into the gambling urge/joy of surprise.

A certain kind of "The Bigger Budget Wins" is very much an aspect of GW games and has been for a very long time, especially as GW moved further from a "pals getting together to goof off with little monster menz" vibe and to a more "serious business" vibe.
 
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The objective is to duplicate the boost GW got from kids who'd played Battlemasters and Heroquest. To, essentially go around the GW fanbase and start fresh with a new generation and keep the costs down in a way that will always make GW look elitist and oldfashioned. Keeping the costs down also broadens the potential market and looks better to moms and grandmas.
 
A propos of Warhammer 40k...

Is there a hack somewhere to create WH stats for non-40k models?

I'm thinking of the Xenos you find in DeadZone (the Plague faction, some of the Rebs)
or Project:Elite or the Abominations from the various Zombicide games, or other SciFi games. Mutant Chronicles feels very WH40k.
The Trun Hunters, Tredarran Mutants, Trederran Raiders... from Shadows of Brimstone...

Or just even how to incorporate AoS minis like the Seraphon, the Sylvaneth, the Mawtribes and Chaos Beasts as newly discovered alien species.
 
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DeadBob said:
A certain kind of "The Bigger Budget Wins" is very much an aspect of GW games and has been for a very long time
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How do you figure? An expensive (dollar wise) unit isn't necessarily better than a less expensive one; someone who struggles to scrape up the money for a 500 point army isn't guaranteed a disadvantage against the person who can field 6,000 points. Spending more money on an army gives you options but that doesn't translate into victory.
 
Godfather Punk said:
A propos of Warhammer 40k...

Is there a hack somewhere to create WH stats for non-40k models?

I'm thinking of the Xenos you find in DeadZone (the Plague faction, some of the Rebs)
or Project:Elite or the Abominations from the various Zombicide games, or other SciFi games. Mutant Chronicles feels very WH40k.
The Trun Hunters, Tredarran Mutants, Trederran Raiders... from Shadows of Brimstone...

Or just even how to incorporate AoS minis like the Seraphon, the Sylvaneth, the Mawtribes and Chaos Beasts as newly discovered alien species.
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you're describing 1st edition...Rogue Trader
 
Brock Savage said:
How do you figure? An expensive (dollar wise) unit isn't necessarily better than a less expensive one; someone who struggles to scrape up the money for a 500 point army isn't guaranteed a disadvantage against the person who can field 6,000 points. Spending more money on an army gives you options but that doesn't translate into victory.
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newer units/models have better rules (deliberately) and they cost substantially more
 
Brock Savage said:
How do you figure? An expensive (dollar wise) unit isn't necessarily better than a less expensive one; someone who struggles to scrape up the money for a 500 point army isn't guaranteed a disadvantage against the person who can field 6,000 points. Spending more money on an army gives you options but that doesn't translate into victory.
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The competitive game is purposefully built to reward those with the funds to chase the ever changing meta. It's not necessarily the purchase price of the models themselves. It's more the requirement to constantly buy the newest things to keep up with whatever the current hotness is.
 
Yesterday I got my second copy of Leviathan I ordered from an online game store. They had it in my hands before GW even printed the shipping label for the one I ordered from them.

So, there's a bad point I'm going to give GW. Every other place that I've ever done pre-orders from has always shipped the item out before the street date so people who pre-order the item can actually have it in their hands on the street date. But, it's not a horrible thing, just a nit. Otherwise I wish the companies which sell the figures I buy were even half as organized as this.

But the one I ordered from GW will get here. It's not like all that plastic is going to get magically instantly assembled and painted when it gets here.

I got my cards ordered today. So I'm set for my 40K gaming for the foreseeable future.

So... Is there anything I want from the Crusade: Tyrannic War Sourcebook? I saw someone say that the rulebook in the Leviathan set had all it's material included.
 
I wonder if the Rogue Trader reprint is any sturdier than the original?
I"ve got two original copies, both in great condition... but that's likely because of light handling (PDF works fine for perusing).
 
DeadBob said:
The Big Problem is the same as with RPGs: There's a single company whose core product dominates public perception and the hobby.

It just isn't likely to be knocked out by a competitor by any means. Its only real competitor is itself and its own internal errors weakening it to the point of death.

Other games could feasibly do things in a similar vein in those areas/aspects not covered by the Big Gorilla Game. 'Clix did a couple of them successfully, so did the X-Wing series.

A bit more traditionally Battlefront and Warlord Games pulled off some wins in the historical gaming categories by taking parts of the GW formula and applying them successfully.

And, like RPGs there are absolutely rooms of indie/cottage industry games and house/club rules. Most of those are completely unknown to fans of The Big Gorilla, but once you tap into them (assuming you like them), a whole new world of possibilities opens up. Of course, it's a whole world that, as with RPGs, is scattered in fifty million different directions, but at that point, you're a miniatures gamer not a (System) gamer.

I think the trick, to some degree, is to look at what GW did to make itself a success with WH40K, to really look at the evolution of the rules, the culture around it, the evolution of the miniatures themselves, playstyle and also business strategy.

I think it's the last one, business strategy, that I think gives hobbyists (like me) a feeling of dealing with the Ickiness, but it's important.
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Monopolies are bad. They lead to lower quality products, homogenization, the death of creativity, and (in media properties) the fandom turning into a religious cult.
 
Simlasa said:
I wonder if the Rogue Trader reprint is any sturdier than the original?
I"ve got two original copies, both in great condition... but that's likely because of light handling (PDF works fine for perusing).
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Mine fell apart almost immediately but it was not lightly handled to say the least.
 
I think all those old GW books had a reputation for crappy bindings, which is why I've always been carefulcautious with mine.
 
Simlasa said:
I think all those old GW books had a reputation for crappy bindings, which is why I've always been carefulcautious with mine.
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What I read was that the glue worked fine in the climate of the UK but couldn't stand up to heat. I don't know if that's true or not but it fits with my experience.
 
Fimm McCool aka Geoffrey Solomon-Sims (Oakbound Studios) walks through his entire process of binding together WFB 3rd and supplemental materials (including all relevant white dwarf articles) in a series of posts n his blog starting here...

fimmmccools.blogspot.com

A Binding Agreement: Collected Warhammer volumes part 1

So the rumours are confirmed, the Warhammer world is no more. But this is not a time for despair! No, this is a time for action... Actuall...
fimmmccools.blogspot.com fimmmccools.blogspot.com

Here's some pics of one of the finished volumes...

IMG_2113.JPGIMG_2114.JPGIMG_2118.JPGIMG_2119.JPGIMG_2121.JPGIMG_2122.JPGIMG_2123.JPG
 
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